Episode #18 – The Future is Fake

And welcome back to the Big Cheese AI podcast. My name is DeAndre Herakis, one of the world's top moderators joined by Sean Hise, Brandon Corbin and Jacob Wise. We are the usual suspects here at the Big Cheese podcast. Today, guys, the future is fake. In this episode, we're diving into the captivating world of deep fakes from harmless fun to potential fears and what the world holds. We're unpacking how AI is reshaping reality as we know it. And there's been a bunch of things that have popped up that some people like, other people probably don't. Some people really like it. The top search thing on Twitter. Brandon, what's going on? Yeah, well, so first of all, let's start off with the fact that that our show notes are now fake. Right? Actually, these notes that we're looking at here are now fully generated through a thing that I've built that we can go in, you can basically run it and you can be like, Hey, what's the topic? Be like, I don't know. And it's going to pick our next topic for the show notes, right? Or for the podcast. It's then going to be like, do you have a guest? And you're like, yes or no. And you give some information. And then it's actually going to automatically search all of the weekly headlines for anything that the topic's about, pulls it all in. And then I just drop that into Google Sheets. So now all of our notes are going to be fake as well. So as a test this week, we are literally doing a fake podcast. Yes. Yeah. This is a fake podcast. So really what's happening is over the course of doing the Big Cheese AI Podcast, we've been trying to leverage as much AI as possible so that the only thing that we actually do is show up on Thursdays and just talk. So now the show notes are created. All of our shorts and content is automatically created using AI. I mean, holy smokes. Yeah. Everything. The artwork. So then the way that works is usually Monday, I'll get a copy of the video. We take that, we run that through our own process and that generates the show notes. It generates the hero image. It generates the album artwork. So almost all of this now is getting to a point where it's completely automated through AI. And that's cool. And I guess the last part is now that we're recording this all through these brand new mics, if you guys have noticed. Look how fancy they are. The podcast is completely edited using AI as well. So all we do is just upload it. Yes. I mean, that sounds like a problem. That's going to be very cool. Yeah. So starting off with our headlines is the, and I'm going to butcher her last name, you guys, but Bobbi Altroff or... Altoff. Altoff. That's it. Right. So she is a blogger or a podcaster that kind of just blew up out of nowhere so fast that she blew up that people say she's kind of an industry plant, but she has this very unique style where she's completely deadpan. And it is. It's just like, so tell me about what you're doing, Drake. You know, she just said, and there's just no emotion or whatever. Really funny. But, and if you watch a video that she put out on, I saw, I think I saw it on TikTok where she's basically, she's like, I got up one morning and I was trending on Twitter or X and she goes and looks and it is a video of what appears to be her doing an act. And, and it just is all over Twitter. I mean, it has just been amplified a thousand times over and she's like, it's completely fake, but that's kind of where we're at now. You can watch this video. Not that I did, of course. And Yeah, right. You had to make sure it was real. You had to, right. But, but it's very hard to tell that that is a fake and, and this is just where we're at now. And so anybody, you know, podcasters who put themselves on screen, who have their voice captured, who have their likeness captured over and over and over again, you have become fodder for being able to build deep fakes. Right. You're training a model. Exactly. I heard like now they just like three seconds of audio is almost enough to get pretty good. And that's where we're going to get. That's one of the things I've wondered about when I get robo calls now, wondering if they were just waiting for me to talk so they can get my voice as a piece of my data. Yeah. That's why I just don't answer the phone. Don't not do not answer. No. Even when you're like, Hey, I used to be like, Hey, this is Brandon. Right. And now I'm like, every time I get one of these, I'm like, Oh, you're probably recording my voice. You're probably being like, Hey, this is Brandon. Yeah. And now you can train a model to make it sound exactly like me. And then they can call your grandparents and say, Johnny needs $50. Johnny's trapped in a prison in Mexico and he needs $50,000 sent to this address for him to get out. And grandma and grandpa are going to be like, Oh, my God. Yeah. Seriously. I mean, it is pretty concerning. Obviously, we're joking a little bit about Bobby, but Bobby is this person that whether she was an industry plant or whatever, she blew up. She created a successful career for herself. And then all of a sudden, these images pop up. Last week, it was Taylor Swift. Right. A few months ago, it was Drake coming out with a better song than Drake's came out with in the past couple of years. Right. Everyone was like. No, that was cool. That was really cool. But you run into a serious problem where, I mean, what does that look like in the future, in your guys' opinion of, OK, most things, even if like the person, we know that it's a fake, but it's still good. It doesn't matter. Will it even matter? So they went in nine hours. Her clip had more than 4.5 million views. Nine hours, 4.5 million views. People don't care. Right. Like, again, it's all a fantasy anyway, especially when we delve into the world of sexuality. I mean, again, we all know porn is a fantasy. And so now all of a sudden, these deep fakes are coming out with these people who we have, you know, we might fancy anyway. And it's like, do you care? I mean, again, like when I did my little experiment with having role playing chats with Olama for last week's podcast, I don't care. I don't care that it's fake. My brain is reading this and is going haywire, thinking that, oh, this is a thing and this is real enough that I can get satiated. And so, yeah, I don't think it really matters if it's fake or not. Like our brains see it and are like, you know, like we just become the animals that we are. Yeah. And so there's now there's there's actually not legal. There's not a lot of legal gravitations to what's going on. And so you're seeing the there's this thing that's coming out called the it's actually called the no. Yeah. The no AI fraud. Yeah. It's called it's sorry. It's called the new artificial intelligence, fake replicas and unauthorized duplications act. And, you know, I don't know why they need new laws for this, because it seems like it would be obviously some of this should be like you'd think copyright might fall into play. Yeah. And that's where you get is this just a right? Is this your typical, you know, just dog and pony show in Washington to try to make it seem like you're doing something? Right. Or is there literally a legal gap that needs to get fulfilled? And I think that I think that, you know, you talk about I honestly equate some of this stuff that we talk about to like when you went from like a Napster model to like a Spotify model. That's a good right. Where you're you're how do I pay royalties to an artist? Yeah, that's that's music is being streamed one to many times and the and the customers paying a fixed fee subscription when it comes to like deep fakes and all that. It's like or someone's deep faking you and you profit off of it. Right. Or or or they profit off of your I mean, you know, it doesn't always have to be they deep fake you and and it was bad. They put you in something that, you know, you wish that would take down to some. I'm guessing the Tom Cruise stuff actually helped him from a PR perspective or the Drake song. He should have got paid royalties for that song. Absolutely. It was created from his from his. And so anyways, likeness, there's there's obviously like legal. There's there's a legal implication to all this. And but I think the other thing that's happening is that because so much fake imagery and videos being created in law enforcement's having a really hard time with this because they're sifting through more media that's ever been created. And like you could get you could someone could just throw a bunch of fake stuff at you and like blank. Like there is like, you know, there are desks already this high with paperwork. Right. And now it's just getting tripled because of the amount of media that's coming in. That's right. That's not real. Yeah. I mean, it's not only that, but you also have no precedent. This was you weren't able to create a fake Drake song with Drake before. And now you can't you weren't able to make literally so you have weird Al. Let's use weird Al. I would agree with that as as an argument. So he would go. But again, it wasn't in it was kind of in their likeness, but it was still his likeness. So maybe it maybe it doesn't. But he went through a process, right? Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Went through and got approval and would talk to him and be like like when he did fat, the bad Michael Jackson's bad thing where he talked with Michael about it very specifically. So, yeah, I think that that's probably the difference there is that they're getting approval and being like, yeah, let's go ahead and do this where these other people are just like all of a sudden they wake up one day and they're like, that's not mine. Yeah, they're going to they're going to have to put some of the pressure on the platforms themselves. How can you possibly track down if I can? So, you know, listening to someone the other day on YouTube, they're like, oh, I can make a deep fake and half an hour and it'll be good enough. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It takes me basically no effort. Like, OK, so that means anyone can basically do that. And if anyone can do it, they will do it. And then if they do it like you're going to get cases like that where it becomes either more escalated, more serious. And how how could you prosecute someone at an individual level? You can't. Right. Well, I mean, you could even argue that since that's the case now, like when Trump blamed a deep fake on the fact that now it's a cop out. Yeah. Now, instead of it being like, oh, that wasn't me, it's a deep fake. Could you prove it? Oh, my gosh. You could say anything. Yeah. Anything. And that's where it's going to go now. In all fairness to Trump, somebody did take a photo and it was of the golfer. I don't know if you know his name. It's a guy with the big white beard. John Daly. Yeah. So it was him. And they just pretty much took his his face off and put Trump's face on and Photoshop. And so Trump was like, wow, it's a deep fake. Like the movie Face Off. Yeah, that's fucked on the kettle black. The amount of fake depictions of their enemies that his tribe does is unbelievable. But going back to what Jacob said, it ultimately I think this comes down to the media distributors, because most of the not many people have the ability to distribute media to four point five million people in nine hours. Right. X does. YouTube does. You know, these these platforms. But it never would have happened on YouTube. Like it would have maybe started. Right. Because they already have some stuff like this. Exactly. So but my going. Yes. Going back to that, you look at trusted media platforms and we talked about this before the podcast. There's a concept that's going to have to get put in place to verify media. Yeah. And you are. We talked about people put in an SSL certificate on their website to verify that. Right. That this is this is coming from a certificate authority. We verify this domain. Well, it's encrypted. You if you upload media to it, to a widely distributed streaming service, there is going to need to be a verification process that so that that media is forever tied to the publisher. Yeah. Right. And then the other thing that's going to have to happen is they're going to have to do more scrubbing on that and more AI on that to basically say, is this depicting someone? Do you have authorization to depict this person? Right. You know, what are the reasons and the use cases? And it might even have to get, you know, mod. I mean, obviously, they're saying you might not even be able to discern deepfakes from from real in the future. Right. So so it might not be possible. It's never going to be perfect. Right. But I think you can probably stop a video like that from being distributed to four point five million viewers in nine hours. Yeah, I think that that is 100 percent the right answer. If there wasn't like some counter influence in the fact that the only reason that Twitter survived a few years ago before all this happened with Elon was because they allowed porn on the platform. Right. And so they're they're incentivized to have something like this. If something goes viral like that on Twitter, it pulls people back to the actual app. And I think that I think that that's where you I think that's a conversation with the regulator style. Right. Like Google has a has a monopoly on search and puts a kibosh to it. Right. I think that that's where that's I don't think that the the legislation that's getting proposed would do anything for like an individual lawsuit perspective. It would do stuff. It would be able to be implemented at a large scale, like against X or against a YouTube. We're going to see it. And I think it probably does come from the EU. Right. The just like the EU is forcing Apple to make ours or PC or whatever the new chat format is. It's kind of like I messages. But for everybody else, it's going to force them to do it, you know, and they're going to have to they're going to have to adjust and they're going to make it. But the fact of the matter is, is that Twitter very specifically is just like, let it ride. Let's see what happens. And Musk got some heat for that. Oh, and he and he probably should. He definitely should. There's things on that platform that I mean, I know the fact that there's businesses on that platform that promote whatever they might promote. And if you go into that platform and you search some wild stuff, you will find it's extremely uncomfortable things on Twitter. I've never tried such a thing. X is turning into absolute ground zero. There's no truthfully is. I mean, any time you go now, like I've said before, when I go to truth social, right, like I have to emotionally prepare. I'm like, all right, I'm going to go to war with a bunch of these mega folk. And and I do it. But never. That was the only platform that ever really triggered that within me. Now, when I go to when I go to X, I find the same thing happen. And but with X, obviously, I'm bringing in Corbin on X, by the way, you can follow me. And and it's like, oh, I shouldn't do this, but I'm going to I'm going to say it. You know, I'm going to call you out on this bullshit because I don't agree with it. And but it's the exact same feeling that I get now when I go to Twitter versus when I go to through social. I mean, I did get a like from from Elon. I share that in the in the Slack channel, didn't I? I forgot what I said to him, but he said something and I like made some snarky reply to it and he liked it. And then I'm like, yeah, and then I'm like, well, hey, well, I've got your attention. Can we talk about you? Open sourcing grok, because that's why you left open a because they weren't open sourcing it. And then I never heard anything back. Yeah, he's a mysterious figure. He is he's he's he is a. Yeah, I can't I can't figure it out. I honestly think that if I could if I was if I look at it from a psychology lens, he seems like a guy who worked really hard, was really smart and accomplished a lot of things and then kind of was like, you know what, I just want to I just want to do whatever I want to do now. And I don't care what anyone thinks. He's got the fuck you money. So he can't he can literally just be like, I don't care. Like, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want to do. And I respect that. Right. And he's like, you know what, we're going to we're going to fire 75% of the Twitter employees, and we're going to improve a bunch of stuff. And they've added a lot of features. So I'll give them props for that. But it does seem it kind of seems like what happened with Joe Rogan. Because again, I followed Rogan, like an episode 50, all the way up to like 1000 or whatever it was. But then all of a sudden, when we start everything started getting hyper political. And then all of a sudden, it was like, everything just starts kind of getting this weird, like, I won't the thing where everything that you say as exactly. And it was just like, yeah, and again, again, I've got a lot of right wing ideas. I've got a lot of left linging ideas that I like. And so I don't mind it. But when everything that we're talking about, every time now Elon's posting something, it's something about the fucking southern border, and how we're being, you know, inundated with all of these migrants, and that they're going to basically destroy the world. And it's just like, okay, I maybe but like, you will. I think you expect a little bit a little bit more from, you know, the CEO of SpaceX. Yeah. And you know, you in Tesla, you think about you think about things, and you don't want them to just come off like you're, you know, your crazy uncle. No, exactly. Like, again, we want to put people and I think honestly, that just goes to show you the impact that social media has on our brains. Yes. And the impact that media consumption has on everyone, because you look at a guy like Dan dockage, like Dan dockage was a good commentator. He I don't know if you know who Dan dockage is. Dan dockage is a guy who was was the interim head coach at IU. He was the guy that shut down Michael Jordan 1984. And that NCAA tournament, right? He was he was he was he was this he was this like, I legend, I he was assistant coach for Bob Knight for a long time. And he got his own radio show. And he got on Twitter. And he got on Twitter. And he just like started becoming such a narcissist and subsessed with his own likes, yep, that it fundamentally changed him and how he acted. And it just really ripped his brain apart. He ended up losing his job, going to outkick, you know, and now he's just some he's just some ass hat on Twitter. And he's and he's lost so much because of it. And he just won't be quiet. And it's like, you were a respected member of the media. You were sitting on the table at ESPN. And now you're nothing. Right? Yeah. And I think that for everyone, I mean, you'll have Elon's got the F you money, but for everyone, you just take a step back with some of this stuff. Like you the dopamine that you're receiving from all this is is not is not good for you or your mental health, right? And for the media that you're that you're consuming, just take it with a grain of salt. Exactly. Like, like, you just just chill out. And I think that, you know, I mean, it's just poison. Yeah, we mentioned, you know, a second ago about Twitter, and you could search things. The reason that I think it falls in line with your point there, like, in the world of deep fakes, and all these things that are coming out, and the fact that Elon, one of the most successful, I mean, philanthropic, brilliant minds of our time is obsessed with Twitter. All right. And he's just constantly consuming media. And he's, I mean, he's already done everything he's done so well, but like, guy like that, at that stature can get pulled into it. And really, what we're saying is like, as you move into the world, and like, you're listening to this podcast, because you want to learn more about like things in AI, the biggest updates and things like that. Like, I guess the suggestion from my perspective, and I was loving your guys as well, is yeah, take things with a grain of salt, but just be careful on social media, on content platforms. Like if we can make an entire podcast, probably by the end of this year, operate without us even being on it, then you should like expect that there's going to be content you're interacting with coming soon on a daily basis that might may or may not be like real whatsoever, but also it's going to impact you regardless of whether or not you know it's real or not. Yeah, I saw a video the other day where this dude made a thing where people with the US is being invaded by aliens and his mom was like a big alien believer. And she was like, Oh my gosh, I knew it. She's like calling her uncle. And like, for one, that was like a little bit of a cruel prank. That's still hilarious. But like, you know, so things like that, it's like, we are susceptible to bias, like whatever we already kind of believe. And that's a good example. I think and like another example I saw was that there might be like an announcement 12 hours before the election that the election date has moved or something. Not totally believable. But if you already have a bias of like, not trusting the government or thinking things are unstable or whatever, that you are susceptible to that, you know, so things like that, whereas like we have to be really careful. And that's hard to train, we do get better over time. But we're in this like training period right now of like, okay, we used to be really susceptible to Nigerian princes. Not so much anymore. Right? Now people get that email and they're like, not this time. But you know, like, we just will eventually become more educated. So so to that point, I'm sitting there on TikTok like a zombie, right? Just swiping through swiping get that next dopamine. And, and I see a video of the Oh, hell, what's the what's the big castle in Disney? Magic Magic Kingdom. It's the cat. It's princess Cinderella, Cinderella's castle burnt down. Right now I'm watching videos of people in Disney and the frigging castles on fire and people and there's smoke all over the place. And I'm like, holy shit, the castle is burnt down. And it took them the fire department this long to get there. So they weren't able to save it and all this. And I'm like, so I end up going upstairs later to my wife and I'm like, Did you hear about the she's like, No, she's like, you'd think that that probably would be real news that that happened. I'm like, so I end up going and looking. Sure enough, it was a quote unquote parody. It can I mean, I it was a parody that someone released, then somebody else picked up on TikTok and ended up making a video about it. And I fell for it hook line and sinker. And it was all bullshit. Wow. I mean, that's where we're at. And both my son and my daughter think I'm an idiot because I fell for it. But I'm like, you just don't know like, like it was legit. I mean, literally, there's people walking there smoke. There's all of the things that you need to basically be convinced that this was a real story. And I fell for it. Do you know what actually disturbs me as a parent more than anything that I've ever seen in my life is I'll be at like a kid's basketball game. And like there's somebody with a younger like maybe they're their kids pretty young. And they're they're they're two year old will take the phone from their parent. They'll go to YouTube and they'll go to shorts and just start swiping through shorts. Yeah, yeah. And and your ass needs to get off TikTok. Oh, yeah. No, no, no, no question. Because like I forget what the stat was. And somebody needs to look this up. But it was like something like 25 percent of Gen Z looks it's all their news from TikTok. Yeah. And it's like, OK, wow, we have failed as a society at this point. Maybe though. Right. So so as now I'm again, I'm old and I'm an idiot and I'm going to fall for all this stuff, you know, as I become a grandpa and like I'm getting played like a fiddle. But I'm hoping that my son, my daughter, they're starting to see it and they're going, oh, OK. And they're slowly building up this kind of, you know, protection for the bullshit that's ultimately coming. And again, you're so you're you're and we just realized this last week that you're the same age as my daughter. So I can be your father, by the way. And you mentioned that time. It's kind of strange. But your generation, I think, is going to just have this you're just going to have a fundamental disbelief of everything that you potentially see, where on the other side, the boomers like the Gen Xers, like we're kind of in this weird middle ground. The boomers fell for everything, right? Like the princes of, you know, of Africa would convince them all the day long. And so I think I feel hopeful for your generation is not what they call cap. That's cap. Just to be honest, Sean's got urban dictionary. My son says it. Yeah, no, that's totally right. It's. Yeah, yeah. They hate it. They hate it when I use nomenclature. Again, I want to know the terms like again, mid mid. It was a great invention. Whoever created mid like that's a great my son hates it when I use mid. But I'm like, it's it's very it's a very practical thing. So I love I love the nomenclature that each of these new generations are. I think I think that the younger kids, you're right, they evolve with the times that they're extremely resilient. Yeah, I haven't really been through that as much when it comes to like social media, because I don't my kids are a lot of phones, but they're good. How old are they? I would never get there. I mean, it's not like that. Cool. They're in fifth and fourth grade and five years old, so they shouldn't have a phone. Right. But when did you get your first phone? I was in high school. I was 15. I got my eight grade. It was a Motorola StarTech. It was it was a cool phone. Yeah, I had a little T-Mobile, little flip boy. I had a flip phone, too. You were the real deal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was there. What year would that have been for you? I don't know what I was. I think I was in eighth grade when I got my first phone. OK, maybe six. I think I was like 20. There's products coming out now that and this is, I think, going to be more more common is there there's manufacturers that are that are building phones for kids and for you. So they're they're not they're not like dumbed down iPhones. And then Apple just copy off what they did and like release a version of their software that's just for kids or. Oh, yeah, they get them early. But there's there's a there's a movement to get kids to basically be tracked and communicated with, but not like sitting on the App Store. Yeah, I mean, because there was an entire generation where before that became a problem, there were the iPad kids and you'd be in Applebee's or Chili's with your friends and there'd be, you know, the parents eating their, you know, their wings and things. And there's this kid with like this disgusting iPad that's just scrolling through. He's been there for 30 minutes and it has all the buffers on it and things like that. And there is the iPad. I've never had. I was in it really did. I was in Puerto Rico for for the holidays like two or three years ago. And there it is much more common to just give a kid a device. Right. I don't know why, but it just is. Well, because it's easy again. Give your kid give it give him the device and you don't need to worry about them. Yeah. And that's the problem they had. I feel so bad for even bringing this up. Sorry. Sorry, Disa. It has nothing to do with Puerto Ricans. But this this this this this family had brought their their infant to the party in a stroller and it was like probably like. Six to eight weeks old, maybe a little bit longer, and it had they had a contraption. No, no stroller. That was a a like it was a clamp that was on the edge of the stroller and it had one of those like malleable like stands on it. And it just put the screen right in front of the kids face. No. And they were just boom screen just already training it on cartoons. Don't do it. And this in this little eight week old kid was just staring at it. Well, when you watch us to develop a vision yet. Right. But but you have dogs like you can watch those dogs who watch the television and they're like there's very specific videos on YouTube for dogs and cats that you can put on and they just watch it. There's like, you know, I mean, it's fixed. That's where we are. And just give it to your kids so they don't annoy you. You can have your dinner and you can be at Disney World. They're just in there just consuming all of it. It's bad. It's bad. It's bad. It's going to it's going to backfire. Then I will say it's not everybody. I see people with with kids that literally their kids are outside every second possible doing everything, you know, doing everything. And kick the can. And those kids are going to separate themselves a little bit, I think, because I think they get exposed to technology enough anyways. But back in my day, my mom didn't know where I was that guy. I sound like an old person. I was over at David's and we were smoking cigs until you held a dinner bell or the lights turn on. And that's when I was trying to go home. Did you see that there was a viral video the other day on Instagram and it was it was back in the day when you needed a public service announcement and it was the public service announcement was it's 10 o'clock. Do you know where your children are? Now it's like, yeah, no, no, no. Yeah, actually, I had no idea where where we were. Let's talk about let's talk about another piece of this, though, which is the much more, I think, scarier piece, which is. There's a big difference in creating a deep like obviously be mortifying if someone created a deep fake of me in a terrible way. I'm totally going to do that, by the way. Yeah, I mean, like I, I think I think something similar has happened to some people that I even know, like that that has had like something like that has happened to people I know already. Really? Yes. But I think what's really more scary is what's really happening in business in the business world, which is people creating massive amounts of fake identities and fake information. And this is a huge growth. I have a client that's seeing it right in every single day. It's getting different is people are trying to create fake personas, fake profiles, fake information to get access to systems to do nefarious deeds. So they're creating like completely fake personas, creating fake accounts, circumventing recapture from Google, which if you don't know what recapture is, recapture is the like behind the scenes utility Google uses to identify if you're a robot or not. It avoids you having to explicitly click the, you know, the motorcycles or or integrates where you have to click the motorcycles, which everyone if you're if you're on a browser other than Chrome, you pretty much have to go through all their photo selection. Yeah, it's terrible, right? You're training their AI, like the little corner of those of the wheel is in the picture. And you're like, does that count? Yeah. Is that a signal? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fun ones. We like a line it up. Do you click the extra boxes or do you? I do the minimal. I go for me. I click for maximal because I'm like, I don't have time. I don't think they make it. So you have to get them. All right. They might not. They probably don't. A mystery, to be honest. Like, yeah, once you get through, OK, great. I mean, again, you are training it. And in the moment that I realized it, that you're training their AI for their car vision is when it was like highlight all of the crosswalks. I'm like, well, you're just training your model for your car driving things. And sure enough, that's exactly what it is. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The select the motorcycle, select the bikes, select the signals like it's all about. They're driving us. That's totally using us for. Yeah. We're basically training there. Yeah. And then just dropped the news of the century. Yeah. You're trying. You're training their their their future driving models. Wow. Thanks, Elon. But yeah, I mean, I think it's so I think the the implications of this as fishing is is just getting harder and harder to figure out. So only fakes. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about only fakes is a it was it was it on the dark web or was it anywhere? So we ever get on the dark web. Oh, yeah. I get on the dark web. You get on the dark web. Yeah. That's brave. So if you use the brave browser, you can just launch into you can launch a tour. So you've got private browsing, which basically just means I'm not going to record your history. So when you're doing some nefarious stuff. But again, I'm not protecting you from like your ISP. They can see what what sites you're going to. But when you launch into the tour mode, you're now using the onion router and you're getting rerouted through a bunch of different they most likely all government run, by the way. So. But yeah. So then you can get to any of the sites that are on purely on the dark web just using brave. So brave browser. If you don't use brave, it's great. It's a killer platform. It's all it's very much like Chrome with all the Google removed. And you have it's got just some really good features of like privacy blocking and tracker blocking and all that. So I've been I've been a brave user for quite a while. Yeah. So little known fact is and I always say his name wrong, but Brandon Ike is the founder of brave. Yeah. That's the guy who invented JavaScript. Oh, no. Yeah. He didn't. He invented it in two weeks at Yahoo. Yeah, that's right. He scrapped together the programming language in a couple of weeks. I thought it was. That's that's why JavaScript. So JavaScript is the programming language of the browser. It's also one of the hardest languages to get to understand because it's literally like the wild, wild west of programming. Right. But this dude, he he is a G. I love him. He wrote a book called If You're a Programmer and You're Out There and You're Trying to Figure Out You're Trying to Get a Good Foundational Understanding of JavaScript, which is the programming language of the browser. Read JavaScript, the good parts. Did you read it? Oh, yes. That's how I got good. Really? Yeah, that was I literally was like stumped. And I was like, I just read that book like twice. And I was like, OK, I understand this stuff. Who was it? Cochlan that I'm saying it is the guy who was talking about. I thought I thought he was one of those. No, Crockford wrote that book. Crockford. OK. OK. Sorry. I'm mistaking. Yes. All right. All right. Ike is who is Ike? But he was the guy who was like, we're talking about how we named Jason and he's like, we called it Jason, but it might be just so I'm literally I'm sorry. I was going to be just a little bit. Ike is the guy. He was the CEO of Mozilla. Oh, OK. OK. And but he's also something else. But he was he. But Mozilla wasn't that the company where where Crock, whatever that guy's name is, was was actually doing the JavaScript development. Yeah. Now, yeah, I'm confused. But nevertheless, right. Like he's one of the original. Yeah. Of the right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Over here. Sorry. We got the cheese. Sorry, Brandon. No, he did. He did create JavaScript. Now he Ike. What are you doing? All right. Here's the facts. Ike created JavaScript. OK. Crockford wrote the book, JavaScript, the good parts. OK. All right. There we are. Learning from both of those guys. It's solid. Yeah, because they're like the founders of this stuff. And I think if you go back to the fundamentals and understand, like how this stuff got created, it's the weirdest stuff. It's that it makes you feel better about being a terrible being terrible because like all this stuff that happened, you're like they just scrapped this stuff together when they were building Netscape. Yeah. And they were building these browsers and they didn't really have a standard. And so after the after all these years, they finally got together and created some standards. But there's a reason why it's really, really hard. It was always really, really hard to be a good web developer. Yeah. So it sucked back back in the day, man. I mean, you had to deal with IE four and five. Both of them were just horrible. And then you had some people that were using Mozilla back then and or Netscape was it now it might have been Navigator back then. And it was it was brutal to be able to design things. And that's why JQuery came out, because it made it so we had like a single interface for all of the different ways that each of the browsers work. JQuery just came out with a new version, by the way. Did you guys hear about this? Yeah. JQuery has a new version, like 15 or 20,000. I don't know what that is. I mean, it still comes on all in all the major frameworks. It's crazy. Yeah. So it's still there and people are still using it. I'm like, man, I almost just for fun when I kind of go back and try to build something with JQuery. I still go back and look at like Lightbox. Oh, yeah. Right. JavaScript library is crazy. You can click on an image and it'll open up in a large pop up of that image. It was great. It's called a lightbox. It was it was nuts. Like people don't know if you haven't been a developer like in the early 2000s, you just don't know how bad it was. Like, again, we were we were literally writing code, hitting save, and it was automatically getting uploaded to the server through FTP. Yeah. Right. I mean, like that was and this is like huge ass companies who've raised millions and millions of dollars. And we're sitting there just writing stuff. That was because of the Dreamweaver auto upload feature. Exactly. You press save and it auto uploads. And it just auto uploaded to your FTP server. We're doing this shit live kind of thing. I mean, it was nuts. It was a great time. But man, it was it was absolutely crazy. Do you remember the website CSS Zen Garden? Oh, my God. I use that all the time. And I'm like, guys, so so funny enough, let me tell you a little story about CSS Zen Garden. I ended up working for this company that was an e-commerce fulfillment. And the C, he was like the director of technology, but he liked to call himself the CTO. And he's like, well, I'm kind of like the CTO. I'm like, man, not really, because you're the director of technology, but whatever. So he and I got in this whole battle and it was all about how their website you see. And I'm like, listen, guys, here's an example of CSS like we can make a single CSS that can completely transform the website. I don't need any of your your dot net bullshit. I can just take your garbage HTML and I can style it. So I use CSS Zen Garden for all the executives to be like, hey, listen, same exact code, different CSS, totally different experience. And it completely shut that guy down. We got into a screaming match. I ended up saying some bad words to him. He's like, you stop cussing at me. And the whole thing broke down and I ended up winning the debate. And my whole system ended up going through and his did not. And he ended up getting laid off later on. I CSS is literally the way that I made it in this world. I went in college and everyone was like really like learning different web programming stuff. And I was obsessed with the fact that you could change the color. Yeah. And I was like and I was like this. I could create a box. And so I went and learned CSS and that's what differentiated me. It was the ability to translate a design into into production. CSS is well, JavaScript is the programming to the web. CSS is the styling framework. Got it. Yeah. And that's why you guys why craft is able to fulfill on the best designs ever. Yeah. That's why when people go, Jacob, what they say about us. Oh, yeah. Just no one's ever been able to take a design and build it and make it look the same like you guys do. I'm like, yeah, we do literally what we've been doing. Yeah. Get to notice it. Yeah. I love to hear it. But yeah, it's what we do. So, you know, let's let's let's talk a little bit more about this. Like what what is the I guess biggest risk in your mind to like deep fake technology? Is it the is it is it the ability to just ruin someone like like to like make them make them feel emasculated or or, you know, completely exposed? Or is it is it to hack? I mean, to me, the hacking thing is like way easier than it's ever been. I mean, you can fake identities. You can go to this Web site and you can get a brand new driver's license in California in 15 minutes. That looks perfect. Like what is the biggest the deep? What was that? Only fakes, which is for fifteen dollars, you can go and get a full online or a full like identity, basically. And they're using large language models to basically generate fake identities. You know, I mean, so that's that's problematic. It used to it's like it's like you used to, you know, have to go to your your your random buddy that still sold weed to get it to get it to get a bag. Right. And now you can just go to the store. Exactly. And that used to like getting a fake identity like you. How many movies have you seen where they go to like the guy and he's like, you know, I spent all weekend, you know, getting the plastic right and doing all this stuff. And now it's like, dude. It's nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I don't know where it leads, but it feels it feels bad, like like it feels like we're in a position where a lot of this stuff can just lead to all sorts of nefarious stuff. And we can't even necessarily imagine how bad it can ultimately get. So if I was a consumer or business person right now, a couple of things I would definitely start utilizing a centralized identity service for everything you do. So like Stripe has integrated with the Apple's new identity. They actually finally came out with an authenticator natively to their services. Have you seen that? No. But like, you know, have you ever has anyone ever used the authenticator app? Oh, yeah. Like it does that random number thing. And then you're always like, wait, I don't even know how to get into that app or whatever. Apple has that integrated now. So as a two factor authentication, instead of sending you a text, it's using your thumbprint and it's using. Oh, so like is this the passkey kind of thing? It's the passkey. Yeah, right. Is that an iOS 17 thing? Yeah. Yeah. That's funny that you mentioned. I just used that the other day and I didn't realize that's what that was. It's a new form of biometric based authentication for your identity for services. But it also works with like like like Stripe is always the shining example. Right. They're the number one payments processor. They're great. But like they've integrated into their core sign in services. So you have to be that person to sign into the service. And then, you know, like like to me, that's that's going to safeguard because you are going to because so many people are are are now there's a basically a whole new capability that's been created. So you're going to see people just get their identities just absolutely flushed. Yeah. And the rise in identity theft is going to increase in the end. It's going to what they're going to do is try to figure out a way to spoof, to spoof you, to get your information, log into your accounts. And so use accounts that have these sort of advanced security mechanisms. If you're building products, you need to do that stuff. Right. Like you need to implement more security now. Yeah. You're not verifying emails or something or if you're not, you know, if you're if you're they're going after low hanging fruit first. Yeah. Right. And the reason part of it, you know, there's been these types of attacks have existed for a long time. But with a I now people can supercharge these attacks to be cast a much wider net and do way more and tap into these systems. So, yeah, it's totally it's going to be a exposure point or attack vector. What I'm saying to people is that the concept of the headless browser is being used for hacking like crazy. Yeah. So they're going out and they're spinning up scripts that just pretend they actually go and use the application. Right. Yeah. And they're figuring out ways to circumvent these services. So, I mean, there's a reason why everything that you have is trying to implement two factor off now, because all the ones that don't are getting absolutely owned. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So isn't Google redoing their off? It looks like it. Yeah. I haven't read into it. It was bad. It was a horrible design. The new the new log and flow. Yeah. But oh, really? Yeah. It was. But they but they keep saying it's coming and it's not here. Well, so I've definitely seen the I saw a new. Yeah. The new might just be the design that's changed on the log in flow and not necessarily like the underlying pinning of it. But you can definitely see that they're making some adjustments to it. And I'm seeing where things like where it's not it's not letting it's not maintaining a log in status for me on one of my accounts and where like I'm constantly having to log in and stuff. So it definitely seems like they're kind of making some adjustments. Yeah. Adjustments there. Back to your question of like, what do we think deep fakes like the biggest implication is? I think it's around misinformation because we're primed and ready for it. Like everybody is biased. Everyone has their biases. We can distribute. We have distribution. So there's all these platforms that people can consume it. And now it's becoming very easy to create and produce the output. So it's only a matter of time before China, Russia or just some asshole in Montana. Sorry, Montana. Like someone's going to create some things and it's going to get out there and, you know, they get shut down, but they do. It's just tipping the scale. You know, it's like is one thing going to destroy us? Probably not. But they're tipping the scale. When a nation state is behind it and has all the compute power that they've got. How are these? And this is a question for another day, but ransomware. Ransomware is traditionally implemented through Microsoft's centralized. You're making sure we never get advertised by Microsoft. No, I mean, pretty much right. Everyone that I ever know that's got ransomware, it's been done on their LDAP system. Like they literally they lock everybody out in the administrator log and gets locked out. Yeah. And then they control your security of your domain and then you're fucked. Right. Like if that to me is like it seems like it seems like it's another win for Apple. It seems like it's another right. It's another win for Apple, because I feel like Apple is the most connected to our true identities right now. They've got your face. They've got your thumbprint. They've got everything right. And they're they're they're implementing like like I don't think my iCloud account could get ransomware. Well, I do. I do. But but a lot of the a lot of the deep fake stuff that kind of comes out seems to be originated through an iCloud account. Again, I'm thinking of I'm trying and I can't remember. It was the well, they might I do tribute. What's the what's that movie? Tribute Hunger Games. Who's the who's the main actress? Katniss Everdeen? No, no, it's it's it's. Yeah, yeah. Jennifer. Jennifer Lawrence. Right. So Jennifer Lawrence, Jennifer, she started the the frappening fappening right on. Oh, yeah. I got into her iCloud. I got into her iCloud account. But that was before they put in all that stuff. That's that's OK. But nevertheless, that was that is true. You know, that was actually not the same thing. Exactly. So but also when you look at the enterprise level, the reason that Microsoft gets hacked more my in my opinion or probably fact, I'm probably right. Is that right? All right. All right. It's because most people use Microsoft. So. Yeah. So like there's an inherently there's just a volume. I think it's a it's a it's a it's like a WSA IPs, right? Like we see like, yeah, but I think that my point with that is everything's so centralized. Yeah. Like if you get the administrator password to a Microsoft. So I guess my point is, is if you completely two factor off with biometric. So the fact is authentication, who is something, you know, something you are and something you have. Yeah. Right. So if you do thumbprint with a phone, that's that's three factors. Yeah. Right. That's a three factor. That's not two factor. And so I think that you can protect yourself from getting your ass hacked by utilizing services that utilize three factor authentication. But then you have the organizations right. You have these enterprises where you've got they have your data. Yeah. And Janie's over here. She's just working the front desk. And all of a sudden she gets an email from her boss. That's like and it could be a video and it could be like or an audio and it'd be like, hey, Janie, I need you to transfer a thousand dollars from our, you know, our one account to this account. Would you do that, please? Just like, oh, yeah, no problem. Oh, there's been there's been so I think the if you look at an organization perspective, CFOs are the number one target for this. Sure, because they are the ones with the keys to the to the bank account. You see it all the time. And I've I've I'm not going to talk about who it was, but I've that like literally CFOs have just wired 50 grand to the to the for no reason. Yeah. Yeah. So it's that that is very problematic. It's extremely problematic. And so like this new synthetic media is going to be something that companies and enterprises are going to have to start treating almost like malware. Right. Right now, we have firewalls that are sitting pretty much sitting there watching for some, you know, some file to come through. We do a quick hash on the file. We like, hey, that's a malware that was already identified by our security team. So to make sure it blocks it, we're going to do the same thing with the synthetic media, which is like this is a completely fake bullshit or audio file that just was shared with Janet. And it's completely it's all fake. And we're going to have this like new spectrum of malware that's all based on synthetic media. So to end on a positive note, I think there's every single time there's a significant change, it creates economic opportunities. It just so happens that as what we learned today, one of the huge economic opportunities that exists is in cybersecurity. Yes, 100 percent. And cybersecurity is something that some some people put to the back burner in the day in the last five, six years, especially when you get all this VC money pumping into SAS companies and doing all this stuff. And now you're looking at more more established companies, companies or scale ups that already have customers. The new the new players, you know, are it's our lesson fewer for our between. Right. But the the concept of if I was looking at my kid that was going into college and was in IT right now, I'd have them learn the pieces, but really get really smart about security because protecting assets is is going to be a very in demand skill over the next five to 10 years. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And like the platforms that enable secure development of the of the applications will win because like as we know, like the more at bats you have, the more iteration you do on your product, the better it will be. And these people are going to be afraid to do that because change could implement security risk. So like those people who do implement these these like high level, it is an auth provider or, you know, whatever, whatever. Is it a service like AWS that's actually hosting the thing like whoever is the winner of those security platforms is going to make a lot of money. So, again, I've got to give props to my son. So we I let him access my chat. GBT, right? Like he uses my chat. GBT account for all of his homework. And so I go in and I have every once in a while I go and I'll like sneak in on what he's doing. And, dude, I have complete hope in the future of the of this next generation, because he's like, OK, here's the rules. Here's how it's going to work. Do you understand my instructions? And he's like, yep, I understand. He's like, all right, next, I want you to do blah, blah, blah. And he's completely cheating, completely cheating. But he's working chat. GPT like you like I've never even imagined. Right. And I'm learning things from him as he's telling you. No, he's like, no, listen, I need you to do this and this and this. It's a masterful. That's definitely how I am very hard on chat. Yeah. Yeah. I treat it like a like my like my step little step. So you can just smack around like, no, just write the code. I understand what I'm asking. Don't tell me it's great. I asked you for the first 12 seconds of this conversation. Yeah, I asked him to do something the other day and forgot to specify what language and it started giving me Python. It was like, if you want to use Python, do this. I'm like, no, stop, stop. Just give me the JavaScript. Yeah. But if they would have used big cheese dot I when it was a viable product, I remembered what programming language. That's right. We had we had the memory. And with that, everybody, this is the big cheese. Thanks so much for listening to the end of this one. Catch you guys next week.