Episode #25: AI and Marketing

[00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.040] and welcome back to the big cheese podcast. I am your host this week, Jacob Wise. And with me, [00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:10.720] I've got Sean Heis and Brandon Corbin, and special guest, Tim Hickel. Welcome. First time [00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:15.520] you've been on the show. So, are you a protocol protocol? We were just talking protocols over [00:00:15.520 --> 00:00:22.000] platforms. Is that something? I mean, I think that it's very important for the fundamental [00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:29.760] aspects of the internet and the web to proliferate for AI to succeed long term, but also for society [00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:39.600] to succeed and to continue to be have power for the community and the people to have some sort of [00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:44.800] power. Because if you leave it up to the hands of Google and Reddit and OpenAI and Microsoft, [00:00:44.800 --> 00:00:48.400] next thing you know, we're going to have two apps. And that's where all the information is [00:00:48.400 --> 00:00:54.560] going to be coming from. And they won't be sourcing jack shit. The point is there's a lot of very [00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:59.200] talented people in the world that didn't have access to information. And when you give [00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:05.120] talented people access to information, you make the world a bigger pie, a bigger, it's a better place. [00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:11.680] So, what we're talking about is what happens if that person who's a diamond in the rough somewhere [00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:16.080] or didn't have access or doesn't have the money to pay to get the information? What did we lose? [00:01:16.080 --> 00:01:20.720] What's the opportunity cost there? Yeah. And let me think of it. The web is completely open, [00:01:20.720 --> 00:01:24.240] you can publish to it, right? Let's say a world where it's not. And there's, let's say there's, [00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:28.880] let's say that YouTube and Reddit win. And that's where there's either go watch a video on YouTube, [00:01:28.880 --> 00:01:32.480] or you go see a post on Reddit. Well, what if, what if Reddit decided, you know what, [00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:38.080] in, in, in eastern Europe, we're going to, this is the type of content that they're going to be [00:01:38.080 --> 00:01:42.240] able to see. And they will because they have shareholders and it's all about, all about. [00:01:42.240 --> 00:01:46.000] And in Compton, New York, this is the type of content we're going to show there. [00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:51.600] Have you, have you messed around much with blue sky? I have no. No, it's fine. It's fine. [00:01:51.600 --> 00:01:55.840] It's a platform. It's okay. I think the, the principles behind are more interesting than the [00:01:55.840 --> 00:02:02.480] platform itself. But the whole idea is the, this is built around that platform versus protocol [00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:06.960] thesis of like, we need to move away from platforms. We've, that's the protocol based [00:02:06.960 --> 00:02:11.200] social media thing. Yeah. Yeah. We did talk about that. Yeah. So we've so heavily over the last [00:02:11.200 --> 00:02:15.920] decade, 15 years, like VC has basically flooded the market with platforms and platforms are not [00:02:15.920 --> 00:02:22.000] the solution, right? Like protocols are the solution. I haven't had a competitive protocol since RSS, [00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:29.280] you know? So introducing a new social protocol, whether it is at protocol, [00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:33.920] which is what blue sky runs on or the social pub protocol, which is what meta is messing around with. [00:02:33.920 --> 00:02:40.480] I, I think that the, the, the central idea, the central thesis behind all of this is, [00:02:40.480 --> 00:02:45.680] no matter what you do, any platform is going to render the problem. Some people are going to [00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.560] think you're monitoring too much and some people are going to think you're not monitoring enough. [00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:53.600] And there's no way to solve that problem. Like, totally. So what if instead you give every user [00:02:53.600 --> 00:02:58.880] the ability to make that decision on their own and to basically opt into their algorithm? Like, [00:02:58.880 --> 00:03:04.800] what if I could opt into a search engine that did not serve me search engine optimized content? [00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:09.920] Oh, I've got a content. I got a, I've got a comment on this. So Twitter, [00:03:09.920 --> 00:03:15.360] X, sorry, the everything platform. Yeah, the everything platform, right, which will never [00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:21.040] happen. Okay. First, I'm going to sidetrack here. This idea of the everything app is based on [00:03:21.040 --> 00:03:27.520] it. What's the super, what's that? Are we chat? We chat, right? It will never happen in America, [00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:33.920] will never happen in America. It happens in China, because you can be forced to have to use an app, [00:03:33.920 --> 00:03:39.760] right? There's no way that Elon is going to be able to build an everything app that is a user [00:03:39.760 --> 00:03:45.440] experience that is anything but a user experience nightmare, right? That's my stance is that this [00:03:45.440 --> 00:03:48.960] idea that you're going to have one app that doesn't really, anyway, doesn't really matter. [00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:56.080] I fucking hate X sense. It's so bad. It is a cesspool dumpster fire, absolute dumpster fire. [00:03:56.080 --> 00:04:02.880] So I was in, in, in, it hurt my feelings, because again, I lost Apollo, right? So Apollo's gone now [00:04:02.880 --> 00:04:09.280] because, because Reddit all of a sudden wants to charge $16,000 a year for their API or whatever. [00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:14.320] And Apollo was the greatest app ever designed for Reddit. And so then I'm like, [00:04:14.320 --> 00:04:19.520] now we got X and X is literally turned into a cesspool. So I went down the objective of I'm [00:04:19.520 --> 00:04:26.560] going to make X bearable again. So I go in and I find how I can go and ban specific words from [00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:33.120] ever showing up in my timeline. And I go and I add all, I add libtard, right? I let maggot, [00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:39.680] right? Like everything that's like politically aligned, I get rid of it. And, and, and it was [00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:45.600] amazing. Absolutely amazing. Like, oh, I'm back. Now people are arguing like is view better than [00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:52.000] react or whatever. And it's not this fucking cesspool. And, and, and I said it for 30 days, [00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:56.800] just to see. So like, after 30 days, it all cleared up and I went right back to the cesspool. [00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:02.880] And dude, I'm telling you, it was night and frigging day going from just get rid of all the political [00:05:02.880 --> 00:05:07.520] stuff, all of it. Like I don't want my own ideologies. I don't want their ideologies. I don't want any [00:05:07.520 --> 00:05:13.120] ideologies. I want Twitter to be Twitter again, where we had fun. And now it is actually bearable. [00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:17.680] And I immediately after those 30 days ended up, I had to go back and reset it all up. [00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:21.680] And what's cool about blue sky, like the promise of blue sky is not only the ability to do that [00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:26.480] super easily, but also the ability for me to then come in and say, you know what, it sounds like [00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:30.880] Brandon, you put a lot of thought into this and the way that you have moderated your social feed. [00:05:30.880 --> 00:05:34.000] Right. Sounds like the way I'd like to explore that too. [00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:38.400] I'm going to use yours, right? No, yeah, really. Yeah, that's the, that's the promise. [00:05:38.400 --> 00:05:43.360] Now, that's a huge problem with that. You do? Yeah, because now you're just going to [00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:49.360] reinforce all your own personal biases. But how I see, I, I don't know that the internet is ever [00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:52.960] like, yeah, I think we're through the looking glass there. You're right. I think you're right. [00:05:52.960 --> 00:05:58.320] And I don't think it matters. Yeah. Like, I think it's, but it is because it already does. [00:05:58.320 --> 00:06:02.400] Because they're already incentivized because they want you to look at it longer. [00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:07.200] So they're already going to do that, right? So I agree with you. If I'm, if I'm at the wheel, [00:06:07.200 --> 00:06:11.600] go ahead. But, but what if I could, so if this is, if this is not a protocol, right? So let's go [00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:16.800] back to RSS, right? Like, I can go download a podcast listener of choice. I don't need to listen [00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:21.040] to like, I use pocketcast. I love pocketcast because I, because the interface is better for me, [00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:24.800] and I enjoy it better. I use that for my dirty podcast. [00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:31.280] That's the only thing. Hot, hot question. What's your top five AI enabled marketing tools right [00:06:31.280 --> 00:06:40.000] now? I'm so fucking out of nowhere. Well, he just threw it in. Yeah. So, so I love Jasper. [00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:44.880] Jasper is super helpful for writing, especially. Oh, yeah. You've been using that for a while, [00:06:44.880 --> 00:06:49.680] but when we talk last time, you're using. So the thing that we always tell people, people love [00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:53.600] talking about what AI can write for you. And I think that's the wrong way to frame it mentally. [00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:58.720] Like it's not what AI can write. AI is bad at writing. AI is amazing at rewriting. AI is amazing [00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:05.280] at like, I wrote one email, and I can send this one email out to our entire list of a million people, [00:07:05.280 --> 00:07:09.200] but I want to segment this out. So how about historically, if I wanted to rewrite that for [00:07:09.200 --> 00:07:14.000] five different personas, that takes me a bunch of time, I can say it. Hey, I've trained you on my [00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:19.280] personas rewrite this for 20 different personas. So like, that's super hyper segmentation and then [00:07:19.280 --> 00:07:24.560] also making sure that like if you've got a big team, you can constantly pull people back to like, [00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:28.720] hey, we use this language to talk about the product and it can it's essentially a smarter [00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:36.480] grammar. Right. So I love that big fan of chat GPT, like chat GPT, building your own custom GPTs [00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:42.800] with GPT for that are specific to your company in your instance is like, I do not think there is a [00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:49.600] better tool out there right now for building a co-pilot. Just because of how good it is it from [00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:55.360] a training perspective, I love notion notion, I'm like obsessed with I can't I'm I'm updating my [00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:59.600] notion like for two hours a night every night right now, because I'm just obsessed with notion. [00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:05.040] And then I like I like mid journey. I have a lot of fun with mid journey. And is there [00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:10.720] we still on discord with mid journey? Or is it they launched they launched a web? I thought they [00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:14.320] launched a web and I could I don't think you can use it. I don't two weeks and I haven't or [00:08:14.320 --> 00:08:17.840] well, it's been two weeks since I've checked. It's been about two months since I applied for the [00:08:17.840 --> 00:08:24.480] beta. I don't like the way discord's interface works. Yeah, it's an interesting way of doing it. [00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:30.400] Well, and I also just in general, I think that like AI from a tooling perspective for marketing [00:08:30.400 --> 00:08:38.320] teams is really good for things like stock imagery, background music, like all the things that don't [00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.440] need to be good. AI is great for things that don't need to be good. [00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.640] Yeah, no, my my girlfriend's a market researcher and she had a presentation where she needed an [00:08:46.640 --> 00:08:52.720] image of a pool with people relaxing next to it. And she used Dolly for that. And of course, [00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:57.440] it made a dog with three legs and made a person who was facing backwards. But somehow her body [00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:01.520] was forward didn't matter. It was good enough. It looked at at first glance. It looked pretty [00:09:01.520 --> 00:09:06.160] damn good. And it was exactly what she needed to display. Exactly. That's the use case. [00:09:06.160 --> 00:09:10.560] So that there was four. No, we need one more one more one more one more. [00:09:10.560 --> 00:09:15.760] Stable. I think I'm very good at four very good answers off the cuff. Absolutely. [00:09:15.760 --> 00:09:22.160] Um, the the other, uh, what's the one that, uh, [00:09:22.160 --> 00:09:34.960] Oh, trivia, thank you. Did we run out? [00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:40.240] Oh my god. Are you shooting me? [00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:45.440] So which can or both cameras done? [00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:58.560] So the whole thing's gone. Tim, what in the holy fuck do we have the audio? [00:09:58.560 --> 00:10:03.600] Yeah, we have the audio. We're just, we're just publishing it on Apple. [00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:06.240] Oh my god. [00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:14.000] Well, this has been the big cheese podcast. That camera doesn't work. But, uh, [00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:22.640] they're both going. But you guys think he's going and we've just put it out. Like, you guys have happened to come and say he said that I think it's out. [00:10:22.640 --> 00:10:24.800] Oh, so we're now recording. [00:10:24.800 --> 00:10:29.680] Yeah, you guys are like completely recording. Because I've been over there, like, 20 minutes, the last 20 minutes you got. [00:10:29.680 --> 00:10:34.080] Okay. I think the last 20 minutes was the best part of it. [00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:35.760] Probably. All right. Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:35.760 --> 00:10:40.320] I don't have, I have 20 minutes to this side. I have the entire thing with this side. [00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:44.320] Oh, we'll get all of the shorts of Tim, then. Yeah. [00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:45.600] Yeah. We're all one. Sorry. [00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:48.400] There's one I don't have. It has this one. [00:10:48.400 --> 00:10:51.520] Ah, yeah. It's the last 20 minutes. So we can support everything up. [00:10:51.520 --> 00:10:56.400] Okay. Okay. Uh, yes. [00:10:56.400 --> 00:10:59.040] Always. Yeah. [00:10:59.040 --> 00:11:02.000] So fucked up. Do we need to get do we need to buy one? [00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:15.680] Suno. Oh, yeah, yeah. Suno. I like Suno, uh, because, uh, again, I like AI for things that don't have to be good and I have a lot of things in my life where it's like, I need a background song for this thing. [00:11:15.680 --> 00:11:19.600] And it doesn't need to be good, right? That's the one we played with a while back. Yeah. [00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:26.080] Yeah. I, I agree. B roll or beef, uh, videos or, or audio. It's really good for that. [00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:30.560] So Opus clip now has a feature that you can add B roll into your short automatically. [00:11:30.560 --> 00:11:31.600] Oh my gosh. [00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:38.400] So doesn't that mean I'm dumb as hell? Doesn't that mean that I can just do what we thought we, we were talking about doing? Yeah. [00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:45.440] Which is like, as I'm talking, it'll figure out what needs to be like random video clip to put in, like a bomb exploding or like. [00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:54.880] Yeah. Like those dudes who are. Like those interludes. Yeah. Like those guys, these guys, they reached out to us and they're like, hey, we took one of your shorts and we made it fucking better. [00:11:54.880 --> 00:12:05.840] And it was, it was just like, whoa, like, world difference between having a professional do your shorts versus Opus clips and this just continues to reinforce what AI is good at. [00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:13.160] You still need to have the main topic. You still need to be good at the creative, the, the, the how you're presenting it. [00:12:13.160 --> 00:12:19.160] But if you want to spice it up a little bit, if you need the supporting document, the supporting image, boom, wait, it can do it. [00:12:19.160 --> 00:12:20.360] Exactly. Exactly. [00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:29.040] And that's great for marketers, right? Because I'm sure marketers get stuck all the time on stuff that they might not be that good at, but they're really good at something. [00:12:29.040 --> 00:12:36.920] Well, and a lot of times it's like, someone has to do this. Someone has to design this thing. And I'm not a very good graphic designer. [00:12:36.920 --> 00:12:45.720] I mean, I built my entire living on marketers, not being able to write HTML and CSS. I mean, it's true, damn it. [00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:51.240] Damn it. You know what I mean, but like, if they could have done it, they would have done it. [00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:56.080] Well, and especially on smaller teams where it's like, I just need to get proof of concept out there and get some feedback. [00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:58.680] I need to get proof of concept out there and get some data, right? [00:12:58.680 --> 00:13:06.880] Yeah. And, and you know, that's such a good point in marketing because I feel like I hear that all the time for marketers, but like, somebody's always in the way of that getting [00:13:06.880 --> 00:13:18.800] executed, right? You end up like limping into the, to the test, you know, and you're like, and then the, the owner or the person who's providing the budget is like, why am I not working or something? [00:13:18.800 --> 00:13:26.880] And it's like, you know, this is a process. Like you, you're, this is, you know, and I think that for, for any project that involves creative and lots of different interdependencies. [00:13:26.880 --> 00:13:34.000] A.I. is a great, right? Because you can, you can slot in different places. So for marketers, maybe this is making you get to market quicker. [00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:44.000] Yeah. With your, with your stuff. Are you seeing, so we always talk about iterations and app development. And a big part of what we do is it's, it's expensive to code something. [00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:49.280] So we spend a lot of time in ideation and just going over, okay, here's what it could do. Why do you want it to do that? All that stuff. [00:13:49.280 --> 00:13:56.160] But when it push comes to shove, nothing beats getting the product in front of somebody to use it. And then they're like, Oh, well, you know, I didn't think about it. [00:13:56.160 --> 00:14:03.440] And it's not even a knock on them. I could, I could be sarcastic and shitty about it. But the reality is that's how our brains work. [00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:17.200] Once you use the thing, you start to really understand the mental model is built. Now I get why actually I didn't want that. So the faster we can iterate, the faster we can get stuff in front of our customers, the better we can get that, that improvement, that continual improvement. [00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:24.880] Same thing's got to be true for you in marketing. It's, it's 100% true. And what I've experienced is like, as team scale, that becomes harder. [00:14:24.880 --> 00:14:37.360] So it's like, there's this inverse correlation that if you can find the middle, if you can find equilibrium here, you have struck gold and you can't be beat, but keeping an equilibrium is like impossible, right? [00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:46.720] Which is to be on one hand, on one end of the spectrum is you are completely agile, right? You are, we're going to ship, we're going to get feedback, we're going to iterate quick, right? [00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:52.520] I'm going to think of an idea this morning. I'm going to develop it this morning. I'm going to ship it this morning. [00:14:52.520 --> 00:15:02.680] I will know by this afternoon, if we're doing it more or less, right? And you could be super, super agile, make really fast decisions and learn really, really fast. [00:15:02.680 --> 00:15:07.880] How do we shorten learning cycles is the thing I talk to teams a lot about, right? Just like the goal here isn't to get an outcome. [00:15:07.880 --> 00:15:14.280] It is to shorten our learning cycles as much as possible. On the other end of that spectrum is where all the money is, right? [00:15:14.280 --> 00:15:26.440] Because no executive is giving you a giant budget to do that shit, right? They'll give you a giant budget for a well thought out plan of what you're going to do for the next six months with their money, right? [00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:43.960] And so down here, you have no resources, but a lot of data. Up here, you have a lot of resources, but you get no data, right? You get no information finding equilibrium there, like the moments when you find equilibrium, where you're able to still able to test, ship quickly, test, iterate, experiment, get data back, [00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:56.360] from the real world, from the market, while still having plenty of budget and resources to tap in to make the work quality good. When you find equilibrium there, it's magic. [00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:06.120] Staying in equilibrium is impossible, because if you're successful at this, more resources are going to find you. And if more resources find you, they demand this other thing that this thing is not conducive to. [00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:13.640] How is AI going to change the way people buy things? [00:16:13.640 --> 00:16:26.760] So I forget the name of this platform, but there was a platform I was listening to a podcast about recently that literally like the promise of this. I don't know that it can actually do this, but it's like I show up to the website of a SaaS company. [00:16:26.760 --> 00:16:42.440] And I can essentially have this AI do a walkthrough of the software for me. So getting rid of the like, request a demo type nonsense stuff that everyone's got to go through. [00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:56.520] That is something that I anticipate seeing more of over the course of the next five years, especially in like B2B SaaS. I think you're going to see a lot of people moving towards how can we use generative AI to answer questions for customers to show the product to customers. [00:16:56.520 --> 00:17:10.600] How can we get humans out of, because right now there are, I mean, this not disrespectfully to any of the individual, lovely humans. I know that do these professions out there, but like, they're a lot of extraneous humans involved in the process, right? [00:17:10.600 --> 00:17:21.320] They're just a lot of humans that while they are wonderful people, like are not necessary for the buying process. I do not need to talk to an SDR who will hand me to an AE who will hand me to a CSM. [00:17:21.320 --> 00:17:31.880] Like, I do not need to have those three relationships plus probably five more relationships within a company for the 50 SaaS platforms that I'm going to buy for my department, right? [00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:41.960] I mean, you know, one thing that I haven't never thought about this until just three seconds ago, but buying things is sometimes an emotional experience. [00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:57.960] And that can hurt you a little bit, right? When you're going through a process, you might have your heart set on something, right? But then you just, you know, your intuition, you start doing the research and you ignore it, right? [00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:11.160] But like AI would be a good assistant in that process. Tell me not to buy that car. Yeah, you know, yeah, like that Volkswagen, you know, you're going to be in a shop a lot, right? [00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:25.080] But the winners there are the people who have the better products, right? So like, then it's more like the sale. So if you're a company, a SaaS company that has good salesmen who can tap into emotions and get you to buy it, even despite the fact that it's not a good product for you, right? [00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:41.080] Because we'll lie to ourselves up and down that we made a good decision. And I liked that guy and it's totally worth worth the purchase, right? But if AI is taking me through this cycle, this sale cycle, and it's all like, you know, unemotional, and yep, I validated this is a good product for you. Nope, it doesn't do what I want. [00:18:41.080 --> 00:18:46.720] I don't want this anymore. That's only good or beneficial to companies that have good product market fit, right? [00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:58.720] Is it good? Is it a good idea to have AI inside of your, inside of your entire companies, like financial? [00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.720] That's going to be that's next week. That's next week. That is. [00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:13.720] But like, I think I'm thinking that from a marketers perspective, though, right? Like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of waste. And I think that, I think Jacob's right, I think the winner is the product. [00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:23.720] I think the winner is also the accessible, the accessibility of your information. Like, if people are, like, people haven't talked about how about it on the customer side, because I was thinking about this. [00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:39.720] And maybe you know this answer, but like, I feel like the, the UGC stuff, the market places of going out. Like, if I want to do a Facebook ad right now, right? And I'm a, like, a gritty marketing agency of like the young 20 year olds. I work with one of them. [00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:55.720] And they source UGC stuff. That's basically what they did. And user generated content. So basically just random, not even really influencer, like explain like how that works and like, maybe how, like, you know, why that's so easy now. [00:19:55.720 --> 00:20:02.720] Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a number one. It's just because there are marketplaces for it, right? It's super easy to go out and what are some of those marketplaces? [00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:10.720] I don't know. But yeah, basically you can go out and just hire a random person to send you a video advertising your product. You can send them some product. You don't even have to send them like. [00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:24.720] So, like, if I'm an influencer or if I'm not even an influencer. Yeah. I've got a, I've got TikTok and I've got Instagram. I can go sign up. I would assume for one of these things to basically be like, Hey, reach out to me if you have something that matches this criteria. [00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:44.720] Yeah. So, like, we have an ad running now for our liquid multivitamin, vitamin company. What? What? You have a liquid multivitamin? I'm an investor in it. Yeah. What's the name? Better family. So, it's a daily liquid multivitamin that anyone in your family can take. [00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:48.720] And what's the website? Betterfamily.com. Okay. [00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:56.720] Don't go to notion.com. It's notion.so. If you've been sitting there wondering why you're on the wrong website. [00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:16.720] So, wait, is this a subscription? Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a shop, subscribe and save. So you can subscribe and save. But what I noticed on the marketing side is that we have this company that they work with and they're, they just have, like, really affordable, like, videos that, that are people are creating these ads and they're testing them constantly. Yeah. [00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:36.720] And it's like, so, I mean, I'm sure that was much of a good to do back in the day. And, and, and the, the cool thing about UGC is it's super easy to go out and say, like, well, what type of person is going to resonate with my market, right? Like, it's, I've got a client who they, she, her primary clientele is women, women between the ages of 40 and 65. [00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:47.720] And she ran an influencer campaign, uh, where she went out and she paid, I mean, she paid really good money to be working with an influencer house that was like, should be delivering results. [00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:57.720] They're good at what they do. And they have big promises about what they say they're capable of doing, right? And the oldest woman in the influencer house is like 27, right? It's like, and guess what? No return. No return. [00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:10.720] No return paid tons of money. No return at all. Right. Um, but do you want to know what works really, really well for her is real members of her shot on their iPhone? Um, just being like, yeah, here's what I, here's how I use this. [00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:21.720] Here's why I use this. Here's why I like it, right? Yeah, I'm getting that value out from real members, but it doesn't even need to be real members because the other two looks like if it looks, yes, genuine and authentic. [00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:31.720] Well, and from me, from a, from a, I mean, from a testing perspective, like being able to test out, like, no, I want to know, will a man or a woman perform better, right? [00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:41.720] It's amazing that it, that, that, that, that testing, like literally that stuff, if you start measuring that, it, it'll perform completely differently. [00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:48.720] Yeah. No, like, I want to, I want to go out and I want to test and be like, all right, yeah, who is going to perform better? Who is going to, who is going to resonate with my audience? [00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:55.720] And then once I start to get a picture of that, I start to see like, oh, okay, my audience tends to resonate with this person and this person and this person. [00:22:55.720 --> 00:23:01.720] How can I go find people? Now I'm going to find an influencer that looks like this, right? I'm not going to go bigger. [00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:08.720] I'm not going to go bigger. So, so a good formula for, for right now is basically start small with the UGC stuff. [00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:15.720] You're, you're, you're taking a, it's, it's AI because it's, it's modern tooling. AI is modern tooling. [00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:24.720] And you're basically saying, I can, for way cheaper, faster and easier, I can go out and get content created and iterate and test it. [00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:33.720] That is very visceral video content that's going on social media. I can use it, I can use it and make ads. [00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:38.720] And then I can scale that up in the future. I mean, you couldn't do that five years ago. [00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:42.720] Yeah, no, I mean, because you, there's just a lot of, there are things you would have to source. [00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:48.720] Like, it's like, okay, now, congratulations, you're now responsible for sourcing 20 people that can shoot these videos. [00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.720] And could you find them? Could I go on Upwork five years ago and pull that off? I probably could. [00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.720] Could I go on Fiverr and find a way to do that five years ago? Like, I'd figure it out, right? [00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:00.720] But is it where it is today? No, not even close. [00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:05.720] Yeah, and I also think that it's like, it's like the bare minimum now. [00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:13.720] People, for us guys, we're just nerds. Like, we don't understand how to run a paper-click campaign. [00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:22.720] Okay, Brandon, probably fucking yes. But you know what I mean? But like, that's the type of, like, what are people actually doing now? [00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:29.720] You know, is like, kind of, the question's always like, what actually works? Right. You know, is it, is it, is it literally? [00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:33.720] Oh, I'm going to go buy these three key words and write a, like. [00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:40.720] If you ask me, dude, it seems like everything that's like the, I just totally broke my mic. [00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:46.720] Oh shit. Is that, okay, I'm not going to touch it. [00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:54.720] Is it simply green? No, green, there's a, there's a company and it's like something green, right? [00:24:54.720 --> 00:25:01.720] And they'll pay you $50 per purchase. And so now you see them on every single podcast, right? [00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:07.720] Like, for me, that's where it seems like the market's ultimately going to go, where I'm just going to pay you as an influencer. [00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:11.720] I'll pay you $55 per customer that I get. [00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:16.720] That's one of the better families, biggest competitors. They're not a competitor because they're, it's their, so it's great. [00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:23.720] It's the green drink. Yeah, yeah, I want to call it simple green, but that's the spray, like the spray cleaner. [00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:29.720] But, but I guess that's kind of a question for you. It was like, is it hard to, is it hard to compete now? [00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:34.720] Because you got these really sophisticated cross plot, cross platform, like campaigns going on. [00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:40.720] And these people seem to be highly beyond what other people are doing. [00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:47.720] It is, it is a lot harder than it was five to 10 years ago, but I think it's easier than it was 10 to 15 years ago. [00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.720] Like, I think it depends on the window, it depends on the window we're talking about, right? [00:25:51.720 --> 00:26:02.720] Like, there was a period of time where SEO and PPC and social media advertising were all solved problems. [00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:09.720] Like, these were equations that like, no, we know you do these three things and then the end output is money, right? [00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:14.720] And it's like, these are pretty predictable, we know how they work, not, it's not super competitive. [00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:20.720] You might have some little micro areas within your operation where it is competitive. [00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.720] Well, these five keywords are impossible for us, right? Whatever, right? [00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:28.720] But now everything is so optimized. Like, every platform has gotten so optimized. [00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:32.720] Every social platform is so optimized. Every paid ad platform is so optimized. [00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:43.720] But like, if the game you're trying to play today is, I'm going to go out and like, I think the worst business in the world today to run would be a PPC marketing company. [00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:49.720] Like, I could not imagine a business I would want to be in less because you are a commodity. [00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:55.720] You're also like, it is impossible for you to be better than other people. Like, it is so hard. [00:26:55.720 --> 00:27:06.720] Are you even so hard? Like, in the hemisphere of the possibility of having success if you're not doing some sort of algorithmic retargeting? [00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.720] It depends a lot on the product and the buying motion. [00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:19.720] But like, let's say for a, for a SaaS product or a physical, a physical nuanced, you know, product that say is price points like a hundred to three hundred dollars. [00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:29.720] Like, like, for the second, are the only winners, the people that are that are literally listed, somehow tapped into Instagram's listening or conversations? [00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:34.720] I don't necessarily buy that any sort of SaaS product is winning because of retargeting. [00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:42.720] Like, I think a product that a hundred to three hundred dollar, like consumer facing product probably is winning a lot with retargeting. [00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:52.720] Yeah, it would be my guess, right? I got an ad yesterday for joggers. They're basically they're trying to imitate like a Lulu lemon or like, anyway, doesn't matter. [00:27:52.720 --> 00:28:02.720] 40 dollars. So the price point was ridiculous and they looked great. Their ad was fantastic. Their website looked great. But of course, I'm a very pessimistic. [00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:10.720] It helped me on that one. Yeah, I am so skeptical of anything. So I've googled it and read it like the first person was like, oh, this was fantastic, probably them. [00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:20.720] Because the next six comments were dog shit. This is a drop ship of another product that's also dog shit and it is not worth it. [00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:24.720] And I was like, oh, good enough. I got my I got my answer. You fall on the part of it. Sorry. [00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:25.720] Forgive me. [00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:32.720] You have to think about the buying motion for each one of those things, right? Like with when you're talking about it like a consumer facing product between a hundred and three hundred dollars. [00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:35.720] Great example of a product that if I. [00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:43.720] The humane pen. Are we talking about that? I don't I don't know what that is. You haven't seen the humane. No, like a little Star Trek communicator that you click. [00:28:43.720 --> 00:28:53.720] Oh, okay, yeah. An MK MK Marquez Brown or whatever. He just roasted him and everybody's like, you're killing that company. [00:28:53.720 --> 00:29:02.720] But is he though? No, he's not because it's dog shit. I read that. I'm like, if the product's bad and you love you, honestly, he I didn't hear any lies. [00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:15.720] No, there was there was not not. It's like, there's so many different ways, right? To do it. Like, like we talked about what's that Chinese website that was on the Super Bowl team team who competes on what price. [00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:25.720] Yeah. Yeah. And but they market like crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like which is like weird, right? They already have the lowest price, but they're also just there. [00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:36.720] But they're they're spending billions on it. They're trying to get you to download their app. But so like, I guess I'm thinking about it as like finding the finding the right flow for what you're selling. [00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:47.720] Right. And how do you and is it just research? Is it is it? So I actually have a specific thing that I'm working on right now for one of my clients that might act that kind of aligns with what you're asking. [00:29:47.720 --> 00:30:01.720] And so we have an extremely large member database for one of my clients. And they want to start basically better understanding who their members are, right? They don't have it really any clue. They know that these people signed up. [00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:13.720] They've paid and that they pay each time, but they don't have any really insight into who their customers are. And so the way that I'm kind of looking at it is I'm like, we've got this database of, you know, whatever 200,000 members. [00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:32.720] We should probably be doing just the basics, which is like an ideal customer profile. And then to be able, you could hypothetically leverage AI to then be able to group them into the specific use AI to identify the group, the ideal customer profiles and then run through each of them to basically group them into it. [00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:36.720] I don't know if you've seen anything or anybody's doing anything like this. [00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:57.720] So I haven't, I haven't seen that specific type of solution, but I like, I like that. And I think to your point about where to begin. It's like, you've got to begin with a thesis in mind. Like, one of the things that I see a lot of especially early career, like first time marketing people try to do is I'm going to run this playbook because this is what I saw somebody else do and I think it's going to be successful. [00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:07.720] And it's like, well, that's going to fail for two reasons going to fail. Number one, because you're running a playbook, someone else ran in a completely different context, not knowing why it worked for them. Right. [00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:13.720] It could have worked for them for reasons completely divorced from everything that you're doing in your market. Right. [00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:28.720] But the other reason is like, especially when I'm trying to figure out where to begin, I am looking to validate or invalidate a hypothesis. Right. I'm not looking on day number one to get results. I'm looking to figure out, like, am I right about this thing or not? [00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:40.720] And when you start with personas, when you start with like, here are my personas, here is a group of 100 people that I think are in this persona. And I want them to get, I want to get them to take this action. I really want them to buy this thing. [00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:51.720] I want them to subscribe for this paid product, whatever it is. I can run a campaign against those people and I can test. I believe if I mean, if I do this, this is how many people are going to do that. Am I right or wrong? [00:31:51.720 --> 00:32:06.720] I can at least start with a hypothesis and take that thesis driven approach. And that will give me, I'll figure out really quickly what's working and what isn't. And I can then go back to that thesis and say, all right, well, what did I get wrong here? [00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:23.720] There are clearly some assumptions I made. Let me debug my own assumptions. I assumed that, like, I assume 10 people of those 100 would respond to those email campaigns. What did I assume the open rate was going to be? Right. And like, and it was it was it was the open rate way lower than I was expecting. [00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:37.720] And I was wrong about that hypothesis. I was wrong about that part of that. That's where AI could really help when you're talking about searching your own data is understanding, better understanding what was done in the past. [00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:50.720] So if you work at a marketing agency, there's probably all kinds of data that you may or may not have access to and figuring out how to plug into that and say, okay, what was what did we do in this scenario? How was it? Was it successful? [00:32:50.720 --> 00:33:10.720] I mean, I mean, obviously that information is is is probably you could probably ask your boss at some level, but like, like, it's I can't imagine how many people have made decisions off false assumptions that didn't even know that they were doing that, right? [00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:21.720] And with and I just don't I don't think people necessarily think about well, this this this concept is is not even applicable. This playbook doesn't even be in this isn't the same sport. [00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:32.720] This goes back this goes back to that idea of that shared knowledge base, right? If everyone on that team is responsible for uploading their lessons learned when they're running experiments to this shared knowledge base. [00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:47.720] And you can go query that you can go talk to that knowledge base and not only will it give you answers, but it will tell you like, hey, by the way, this is the person who ran this campaign, you can reach out to them and talk more about it like the number of times where it's like that [00:33:47.720 --> 00:34:04.720] that I've been leading a team and it's like, this person is figuring out a thing that this person hasn't and half of my job is air traffic control. I'm just like, it's like, I feel like if you're ever going into a sporting event and you see one guy with the sign that says I need tickets and another guy says I'm selling tickets. [00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:24.720] Here's the my as someone who has runs a business and has employees. I think that that may be the most annoying thing that you can experience as a as a manager as a operator is the simple fact that people don't collaborate as much as you think they were. [00:34:24.720 --> 00:34:37.720] And even people that have worked together for years, they typically kind of want to kind of, it's more of an input and output system, like they're doing something and they want to just they want to figure out how to just get that done. [00:34:37.720 --> 00:34:50.720] And, you know, it takes a special person I feel like to go, you know what, let's let's let's let's let's figure out what the team thinks let's collaborate. Let me put myself out there a little bit. And so people don't they shy away. [00:34:50.720 --> 00:34:59.720] And then you have the opposite people that literally will schedule a meeting for you to do their homework, right? But, you know, don't get me started. [00:34:59.720 --> 00:35:11.720] I've worked with those people. Did you see that Jeff Bezos video the other day. It was the best. It was the best video sent to my wife. My wife's a principal school. And it was talking about how he didn't allow power points at Amazon. [00:35:11.720 --> 00:35:28.720] Yep. A page memo. Yep. Yep. See, yeah, the eight page memo. He's like, you you you can power points hide inadequacy. They hide. They hide basically a lack of work. They put the they basically put you in a position where you don't have to put any thought into what you're doing. [00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:37.720] Right. And that's but a memo you have to go write the memo. The memo has to be concise has has to be read and consumed all on its own. You can't it can't be presented. Right. [00:35:37.720 --> 00:35:57.720] And so when someone's doing a presentation, you ask a question, you go, Oh, we'll fix that in the other slide or we'll put take that offline. A memo, you can't take off line. Right. And I always thought that was very important. Right. And it's just like, it's like, you know, you're putting a full thought and everything into something as its own specific deliverable. [00:35:57.720 --> 00:36:07.720] You know, is part of that. Right. And then you don't have to. Then your collaboration is for the shy person in the introvert, it worked. That doesn't want to bother anybody. [00:36:07.720 --> 00:36:20.720] He's going to get the damn dog. Yeah, he's not going to get three bullet points on a power point. Right. So here's here's my slack killer that like someone out there, please build for me so I can buy it. Like, I would like to buy this software from you, please. [00:36:20.720 --> 00:36:34.720] I don't like slack. I think slack is built on a lot of faulty assumptions, like, and it was built in. It was built in a world based on a lot of faulty assumptions that we now learn to be false and they don't understand that the assumptions they made were false. [00:36:34.720 --> 00:36:39.720] There's too much insular thinking at Salesforce for slack to ever change so it won't. [00:36:39.720 --> 00:36:55.720] So, no, I'm not because they're not going to listen to this podcast. [00:36:55.720 --> 00:37:06.720] Like, no, they're going to listen to all their salesforce certified podcast. Like there's like this. Oh, this wasn't that because we have a readership. [00:37:06.720 --> 00:37:12.720] So what sucks about slack specifically is, I think it's too much of an open sandbox. Right. [00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:24.720] I show up to the slack interface and who do I interact with? What do I interact with? It's a very big choose your own adventure for me, which means like if you have a company of 100 people. [00:37:24.720 --> 00:37:32.720] There are 100 slack instances in your organization and they're all different and they don't feel different to you, but you're not the one experiencing them, right? [00:37:32.720 --> 00:37:40.720] Like, there are 100 different ways people are experiencing slack. And I think that's weird and I don't because I don't think that's how we construct our office spaces. [00:37:40.720 --> 00:37:46.720] Like, when we construct an office space, we don't say each of you get a hundred little itty bitty rooms that you get to personalize any way you like. [00:37:46.720 --> 00:37:52.720] We have these big shared spaces that kind of force a little bit of that interaction. We have all these rituals that force that interaction. [00:37:52.720 --> 00:37:56.720] The only thing we think about when we're in person that we don't think about virtually. [00:37:56.720 --> 00:38:10.720] And the simple pivot that I wish we would see and I don't, it's going to take somebody else coming in and displacing them for it to happen is I wish instead I logged on and the first person I interact with is a chatbot. [00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:13.720] I think it's going to happen. There's no question that they're going to do that. [00:38:13.720 --> 00:38:21.720] That's the golden path, right? So it's not just an option because right now I can go plug in a generative bot right now, but it's an option, not a golden path. [00:38:21.720 --> 00:38:26.720] I want a golden path like I log on and tell me everything I've missed the first and I log on. [00:38:26.720 --> 00:38:35.720] It feeds me that. It gives me some synopsis. If I've been gone for a week, it does the Twitter thing where it shows me like just the best stuff for the past seven days, whatever. [00:38:35.720 --> 00:38:42.720] But sorry, the everything platform, but then, but then when I'm when I'm asking it questions. [00:38:42.720 --> 00:38:50.720] I'm talking about this, this problem. It says, Hey, by the way, these two colleagues actually have some really interesting insights that I think you should learn from. [00:38:50.720 --> 00:38:57.720] Would you like me to set up a conversation between the two of you and the generative AI could basically broker those conversations? [00:38:57.720 --> 00:39:05.720] And I imagine a universe in which I open this up and one of the things that my generative AI is asking me is like, Hey, these three people in the organization, like this person from engineering. [00:39:05.720 --> 00:39:11.720] They have a question about this feature they're trying to launch and they think they could learn a lot from product marketing. [00:39:11.720 --> 00:39:25.720] Like, would you be willing to sit down with them? Who won your team? That's an interesting concept. And you know what that hurts is Apple's AI play because Apple's AI play is all going to be based on what it sees on your screen. [00:39:25.720 --> 00:39:35.720] Right. What you were doing. Completely bubbled. And they're not really in the business market. Right. And so maybe it's time to sell. No kidding. [00:39:35.720 --> 00:39:45.720] We were talking about Apple stock. But I guess the interesting thing is that Apple's not really going to have access to the company's data. They're going to have access to you personally. [00:39:45.720 --> 00:39:48.720] So really, that means they're only going to win on your personal life. [00:39:48.720 --> 00:39:59.720] So now this and this might be all bullshit because I saw it on TikTok. So take it with a grain of salt, right? That part of the functionality and features that are coming out in the 18 in iOS 18. [00:39:59.720 --> 00:40:11.720] Is it 18? Are we on 17 or not? Okay. So in 18 is to be able to start seeing who's talking about you. [00:40:11.720 --> 00:40:21.720] So as you and I are having the chat, we're talking about Jacob. Hypothetically, Jacob would be able to see that. Oh, hey, they're talking about you. Would you be interested in joining this conversation? [00:40:21.720 --> 00:40:37.720] Holy shit. I know. Yeah. This is horrifying on every front. I need to switch to Android because I am not emotionally stable enough to handle the ping of like, hey, your three friends are all talking about you. [00:40:37.720 --> 00:40:50.720] They're talking about me. I am not. I need to switch to Android. That's why I think that's why we have to absolutely take everything I'm saying here with a massive grain of salt because it seems like that would be very antithesis to what Apple's entire approach is. [00:40:50.720 --> 00:41:00.720] It's just a fundamental thing you talk about with AI is the winners aren't the winner of the general AI thing right now is chat GPT. [00:41:00.720 --> 00:41:15.720] Yeah. But the future winners are the products and services that latch on to contextual information. So an organization's information, someone's personal information about their personal life, which Apple's going to win that battle if you ask me. [00:41:15.720 --> 00:41:26.720] But who's going to win the business one? Is it Microsoft? Is it Slack? Is it Salesforce? Is it Google? And is it some other startup? Because more is it a conglomerate? [00:41:26.720 --> 00:41:34.720] Did you see Google's keynotes or their conference of all the tooling that they have coming out? It's pretty freaking impressive. [00:41:34.720 --> 00:41:45.720] Of course, it's all doctored and best-case scenario stuff, but basically we're talking about B-roll and making presentations. It's all geared around that. [00:41:45.720 --> 00:42:00.720] One of the slides they had was someone presenting information in one corner and there was a nice generated image over here that was just making consumable information for your organization in the context of that easier and more professional. [00:42:00.720 --> 00:42:14.720] The reason why Google wins in those situations is the same reason why Tint Lawrence Township has Chromebooks and Google Workspace, because it's cheap. [00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:21.720] Everything's in the cloud. They have underpowered devices that run on Google Workspace and they have a good deal. [00:42:21.720 --> 00:42:28.720] These kids, their whole life cycle for 12 years is on a Google device. So that's a pretty big footprint. [00:42:28.720 --> 00:42:36.720] That's a good point. Maybe Microsoft wins now. Here's what I think will happen. Microsoft will just copy that. They'll have teams version of all the things that Google's going to do. [00:42:36.720 --> 00:42:45.720] They're going to win for now because corporate America runs on Microsoft. But yeah, the next generation, which has been literally spoon-fed Google Workspace for their entire lives. [00:42:45.720 --> 00:42:57.720] The problem with the large organizations, though, is they, and this is solved, or it's attempting to be solved, is it's harder because you have permissions and issues with, you know what I mean? [00:42:57.720 --> 00:43:08.720] For small, I'm interested to see who wins the one to 30 size person company or that battle because that's probably going to be the hardest. [00:43:08.720 --> 00:43:15.720] It's going to be the hardest and the tools are going to be the best. You know what I mean? Those tools will be the easiest to use. [00:43:15.720 --> 00:43:23.720] I mean, it's like what happened when Slack came out and completely changed how people worked and that was penetrated at smaller organizations. [00:43:23.720 --> 00:43:31.720] I went to bigger ones. Salesforce owns Slack. Microsoft owns Yammer. [00:43:31.720 --> 00:43:38.720] So Microsoft bought Yammer years and years and years ago. Dick York. Dick Sergeant. Sergeant York. [00:43:38.720 --> 00:43:45.720] So what does Google have? Does Google have anything? They have Wave. [00:43:45.720 --> 00:43:52.720] Because I was thinking about that. I'm like, you know, we obviously, we use Slack for our internal stuff. [00:43:52.720 --> 00:43:55.720] They tried to come out with a Slack competitor a couple years ago and they combossed it. [00:43:55.720 --> 00:44:02.720] Yeah. And that was the part that's kind of blowing me away because the fact is is we should be able just to have conversations about Slack. [00:44:02.720 --> 00:44:08.720] They had Slack 10, 20 years ago with Gchat. All they had to do is keep working on it. [00:44:08.720 --> 00:44:13.720] Exactly. That's typical of Google. They're a very siloed organization. [00:44:13.720 --> 00:44:19.720] And if they can't make a billion dollars, they just, they go boom, give you a bunch of money, didn't work immediately. [00:44:19.720 --> 00:44:23.720] Next didn't work immediately. Next. But what they do do is they come out with stuff. [00:44:23.720 --> 00:44:26.720] Yeah. No question about that. They come out with lots of stuff. [00:44:26.720 --> 00:44:31.720] And their advantage is the AI stuff, I think, is conducive to what they're good at. [00:44:31.720 --> 00:44:37.720] Like, you know, data science, for example. But we should have Slack, like we should have that Slack experience across. [00:44:37.720 --> 00:44:43.720] When I'm in Drive, I should be able to message you and be like, hey, check out this file, right? [00:44:43.720 --> 00:44:50.720] But we know like, they can't win with Drive. You already figured it out. It's not Markdown. [00:44:50.720 --> 00:44:58.720] No. But even then, it's like, we're in the big cheese, you know, Google space. [00:44:58.720 --> 00:45:05.720] Why can't we be having conversations? No, we literally have to use Slack because we don't have a tool. [00:45:05.720 --> 00:45:12.720] Yeah. And it's ridiculous. There's no reason why, like, you can't have tea or Gchat just as like an integrate. [00:45:12.720 --> 00:45:23.720] Because, I mean, it works. It's been an Apple in Microsoft. All none of them have a sufficient real-time collaboration tool. [00:45:23.720 --> 00:45:29.720] Teams is a joke. It's horrendous. Yeah, I don't like teams at all. It's terrible. [00:45:29.720 --> 00:45:33.720] Like, if I had a pick between Slack and teams, Slack wins for sure. [00:45:33.720 --> 00:45:38.720] But I'm, you know, I'm with you on that whole, that whole journey and concept. [00:45:38.720 --> 00:45:40.720] Maybe that's one of the reasons why people don't reach out. [00:45:40.720 --> 00:45:45.720] Yeah. Anyways, we'd be probably should be done. [00:45:45.720 --> 00:45:52.720] All right, guys. Well, thank you, Tim, for joining us. This has been the big cheese podcast, and we'll see you next week. [00:45:52.720 --> 00:45:57.720] We should probably rerecord the intro. Okay. Just in case. Yeah, let's do that. [00:45:57.720 --> 00:46:02.720] Did we lose the intro? Yeah, I think we did. Yeah, yeah. [00:46:02.720 --> 00:46:05.720] All right. And welcome back. Yeah. [00:46:05.720 --> 00:46:10.720] And welcome back to the big cheese podcast. I am your host this week, Jacob Wise. [00:46:10.720 --> 00:46:17.720] And with me, I have Sean Heis and Brandon Corbin. And this week's special guest is Tim Hickel. [00:46:17.720 --> 00:46:22.720] That's, that's okay. I got it. I mean, absolutely crushed it. [00:46:22.720 --> 00:46:28.720] And this is Tim's first time with us ever. And this is the first time we've actually introed him today. [00:46:28.720 --> 00:46:31.720] So welcome, Tim. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? [00:46:31.720 --> 00:46:35.720] Thank you so much. Super excited to be here. So I'm a fractional marketing leader. [00:46:35.720 --> 00:46:39.720] I've been doing the high growth B2B SaaS company thing for the last decade. [00:46:39.720 --> 00:46:50.720] Right now focused on helping companies get found, grow their influence in their market, especially with how rapidly everything is changing with AI revolutionizing every platform from Google to social media. [00:46:50.720 --> 00:46:57.720] Yep. And now you will not. So, so in all honesty, Tim, this is the second time that we've had Tim on the podcast and it's screwed up. [00:46:57.720 --> 00:47:01.720] And I won't even, I don't even remember who screwed it up the first time. [00:47:01.720 --> 00:47:05.720] Okay, Sean. And so apparently we might have screwed up a little bit. [00:47:05.720 --> 00:47:11.720] We'll get to that. But anyway, Tim, thank you for joining us. I look forward to our discussion. [00:47:11.720 --> 00:47:16.720] Yeah, in the future. In the future. We might have to have you back for part two. [00:47:16.720 --> 00:47:17.560] - Bye.