s03 e09 AI and Therapy

Speaker 1 (00:00.526) Three, go.

Well, welcome back to the Big Cheese AI podcast. I'm here with a couple of schlubs. Jacob.

Brandon hello everybody welcome to the big cheese AI pockets are we testing or are we actually actually live welcome back everybody

Well, hey, we're here. We finally moved into our permanent podcast studio. Are you sure? Yeah, maybe for the seventies third time we have moved and we, but we still have the same gear and we're still rocking. We still rocking the Logitech Mevo cores streaming to the iPad and four pro. We've got our a road caster. So we're, in business today. We're talking about a really crazy concept called therapy and

such a stigma, right? Kick the stigma, you know, kick the stigma, kick the stigma, kick the stigma, right? So, one of the things that we've been doing lately is we'd all we've been doing is talking about the most nerdy code stuff ever. Right. And, we wanted to kind of get back to our roots and talk about some, some, some domain specific topics. And, the first thing that came to, to, to Brandon's mind, the guy who comes up with the old, all the ideas, was therapy.

Speaker 2 (01:01.262) Yeah. Kick the shit out of it.

Speaker 1 (01:26.69) You know, I think I'd like you to set the stage a little.

Let's set the stage. So it all really started about, I think it was last, maybe it was a week ago that I did the blind spot post. So I was just poking around Reddit and some, I'll give them props in the show notes. But somebody came up with the idea of now that chat GPT can actually search all of your previous chats. He's like, you guys have to go do this. And the prompt literally is, now that you can remember everything that I've typed here, point out my top five blind spots.

Okay, so what happens, it was a doozy, right? So for me, I'll just run through real quick, like kind of some high level ones of mine. I often operate like a founder, but I hesitate to own that title. And it just nailed it with my blind spot. Yeah, saying you're building empires with somebody else's flag on top.

I'll do

Speaker 1 (02:23.874) That was the most I just want to stop. So, so for those of you that may or may not know, Brandon, I mean, this is literally what I've been talking to him about for the last two years since I met him. Like, dude, you're killing it, but you're killing it for someone else's game. Now it's not always true. I mean, this is, but it, but it's looking, it's looking, you, asked it for blind spots.

So I've sat and again, I have a ton of conversations with chat GPT That's the key here So a lot of people who went and did this are like well my results weren't that good I go on 45 minute long walks and I'll have a conversation with chat GPT and we'll go deep like we'll be breaking down and deconstructing the way my thinking is and like Problems that I have and issues that I have and I always started off as like I don't want you to just make me happy I want you to be hyper critical So for me like I have a ridiculous amount of content. What's funny is my son shares

my account and so I always wonder like how much has he actually gotten in there and seen just how like wild it is. But if you haven't done this, it's hard to kind of explain like it.

the feeling that you get from it when it truly does deconstruct you. And it does it in a way that it it fluffs your ego just enough, but at the same time, it kicks you in the nuts where it was just like, my God. So obviously the building the thing, mind is underestimating that my chaos is actually a system.

And so after I did all of this, I went deeper. I'm like, well, it's actually now deconstruct that whole concept. And so I'm like, well, isn't that just how other people do things? It's like, no. And so there's an actual system now that I've extracted from this. And I forget what we called it. Like the came up with some fucking name for it, like the case, some acronym with chaos as a system. But man, it's it's it's absolutely amazing. You have to go do it if you haven't done it. You did it. But yours was.

Speaker 1 (04:11.31) I nailed me. You can't, we can't bring it up because, uh, right. Well, thing it said was I, and I don't, think it, I think it was a little short, of course, blind spots, but it was like, was, so I had conversations with the chat GPT about a lot of different things. Well, I'm involved in a lot of different things. I'll use it to, you know, um, help my wife. I'll use it to help me run my little league.

What it is.

Speaker 1 (04:39.31) I'll use it to come up with song ideas for my band and basically it was like you're a jack of all trades master or not and I was like It was like it was like in and It was your a spat you're a generalist. It said something like you're a you're a you're a specialist in an or a generalist in a specialist world Which is kind of weird because I am There's things that I'm good at that are better than you know people that are think they're specialists, right?

Fuck you!

Speaker 1 (05:08.974) But I think what it pointed out, and this is so true, it's been one of my biggest inner monologues, like, you know, there's only so much shit you can attack and be really good at.

Well, okay. But also that's why I think we are all entrepreneurs is because one, we want to do everything. So we have a little bit of trouble. Did it say anything about, relinquishing control or anything like that?

I didn't go that deep into it. Honestly, just latched onto that thing and put a bucket over my head for 10 hours.

I feel like I haven't done it yet, but I don't talk to chat GBT as much as you guys do. I'll do the chats a lot about like interpersonal relationships and just like.

Talk to it a lot.

Speaker 3 (05:47.662) But if you've done that, then it has. Then it has enough that it's gonna tear your soul out.

Well, most of time I use it as like when I know I'm being too hard on somebody, I like to talk and explain the situation. Right. And you know, I think one key is remembering that it is trying to be agreeable, but it does help open up and show you some of your blind spots. Like I'm being a dick to my brother, for example, or I'm being too hard on him. It'll tell me like, Hey, you know, just remember he might be having a bad day or whatever, you whatever the context is.

And it is a good, it's rubber ducking really is what it is. It's like rubber ducking with someone who knows everything on the internet, right?

I'll go get mine real quick while you talk

Do it, do that, do it. So one of the, and I'll reveal this, because I guarantee my daughter won't actually see it, and I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast before, I know we've all talked about it, but this was two Christmases ago.

Speaker 3 (06:42.742) Right. was two Christmases ago and, you know, we've always had this weird dynamic with my family and the Christmas and all this. so I was like, you know, I want to make sure that my daughter knows that I want her to be there, but I also know that she's kind of doing her own thing. And I always know that I never really know how to handle that. So I just went and I kind of just laid it out in chat, GBT. And I'm like, how do I actually say this to my daughter? And so I and it's like, here's how you can kind of approach it and break it down. You know, she's obviously doing her own thing or whatever. So I put it in and then I and I actually go and have the conversation with my

daughter and and she comes back she's like you know she says this and it kind of upset me like how her she responded like like my ego was hurt from it yeah and so I'm like I just take her response I put it in there and it just it just it deconstructed it and it's like hey listen dumbass this has nothing to do with you this has everything to do with her and what she's doing and it helped me so fucking much yeah and then I'm just like I totally get it

I 100 % agree with you.

When you're upset and emotional and you give it that information and you know, it's not a replacement for like a trained professional, but it is a good like get you grounded in reality a little bit because it doesn't have emotions and it is trying to be agreeable. So it has a tendency to listen to your, you know, that is the example that I would say like I get a lot when I'm talking to chat GPT or some large language model that it just helps me understand. that was a blind spot. I was ignoring that.

don't need to be upset, this isn't about me, this is about them, you know.

Speaker 3 (08:10.59) I wonder too how much of it is that we know that it is not another meat vehicle on the other side who has judgments, who has their own opinions, who has all that bullshit.

100 % because when you're talking to your friend about something, what are you really looking for? I'm looking for validation most of time. I'm gonna tell them this horrible thing that happened to me and it was so bad and the other person was the worst, right? And that's what they know and we're all trained. We know that's what they're saying right It's all you, buddy. Yeah, you you're imperfect actually. They suck. She is a bitch. Yeah, and a little bit of that is good for venting but you know, in reality is like, there's only so much of that.

that you need in your life and sometimes you do need someone to just ground you a little bit and be like, relax, this is not that big of a deal, you know.

Alright, Sean.

Okay. So nothing groundbreaking, but, the, the, the common revisit the comment that it said and actually read it, but it said you can code brand market pitch and organize events, which makes you a great founder, but your broad skillset sometimes stretches across too many domains, which can blur focus or result in good enough execution where it's great. Would have been made a, made a big impact.

Speaker 3 (09:22.798) So let me, I want to critique that assessment of you. I don't think that that's a fair assessment because I think that everything that Hit just described is within the domain that you work. Yeah. Right? Like it's not like you're doing drag over here and you're like doing a Lego convention and you're trying to do this.

I think maybe that comes from, me, it, me not, not having as much, like I just go, basically all it's feedback to me is that you just asked me to do shit for you. But, one thing that, one thing that I thought was actually a takeaway that I thought was valuable was you under value soft systems, community consistency and communication. Your brain work, your brain is wired for hard systems, code platforms, workflows, but the soft systems

customer onboarding feedback loops, brand tone, consistency, long-term community engagement, sometimes doesn't get as much attention. That's really fucking dry. Like all I care about is what the exact thing. And I've always struggled with those things.

Yeah. And I think it's served you and us really, really well, but I do agree that, and I think I'm very similar where it's like great output driven and focusing on some deliverable or whatever, you know, and the bigger, broader picture is not, it's just not tangible enough. Sometimes like we need, also our work, our client work, we're being asked to deliver results. Now it's like,

We're also asking that like we're, Jacob's always challenging me on that, like in a good way. And we're challenging ourselves with that, but it's like so true. Like crafted would probably be 10 times as big as it is if we actually valued some of those things. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (11:03.2) You do, but to be fair to you, in us in general, in our approach is like, every consultant you talk to that they're good at, go to market or whatever, they're going to say, you have to do this thing. This is the secret. The reality is you have to crawl, you have to walk, then you can run. And not everybody is in the position to be running with whatever you are really good at. Or is it really appropriate for your industry or time and place or whatever?

So here's what I hear. So what I hear, let me adjust this, get this more on my grill. What I hear, because I hear the echo too, is that if there is a go-to-market person that's out there, you have two companies. You've got Crafted and you have Happy Data Studios. You have people that love to build wild shit. But then once it's built, we're like, all right, we're good.

I had a conversation with Brandon yesterday. I called him in the Michael Michael most mornings and I'm just like, vomit him on what it what's what we need to care about that day. But one thing I said is I if someone just gave us two million dollars to just go build a bunch of shit and just throw it to the go to market team, we would we would a hundred X hundred X. mean, lovable has eight hundred fifty thousand dollars per employee.

revenue and 20 employees. Like we could build that.

so complete s-

Speaker 1 (12:27.874) But we have no idea how to take it to the market or care to.

That's that's the problem is there's there's there's it just takes a different type of personality to want to really do it again Like we understand how to do it. You can do it. I don't get up in the morning I'm just like I want to go promote shit to people like I don't like that's this not my thing But that being said I real quick the complete sideline to the therapy thing. I've got a quick question. Just go for it. Yes, fuck bolt dot new I've talked about it lovable a lot, but bolt on you you Jacob you played with bolt dot new

Tell me about it.

No, there, so I, um, I use lovable.dev this last weekend for a couple of iterations and a couple of days and bolt.new is great. Like their new visual, um, they just released it. Well, basically it's like their answer to lovable.dev, I, I'm a huge fan and I think it's more developer focused, developer driven, right? Cause one of the prompts is

build a UI with ShadCN, right? Where lovable is more like describe your product. And it'll make those selections anyway, but it's not like geared towards developers as much as geared more towards people who want to build shit and or like, you know.

Speaker 3 (13:40.302) Is there a price? So the one thing that I've struggled with lovable is the price point. The price point and the amount of tokens that you get is horseshit. So I've hit multiple times now where I pay 20 and then I'm like, all right, I'll go to the 50 and then I like downgraded and I'm just trying to like, because like I can literally, it seems like I can make it maybe a half a day in a project before it's like, all right, you're done. And I'm like, all right, I'm this fucking down local and I'm running it with cursor now.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:06.646) That's with your $50 a month. I'm on the free plan and I basically on the free plan you can you can get like four, four prompts. Right. And I did get some cool shit out of it and four prompts. I was like, well, that's cool. I struggle with a blank slate. You know, like I'm more of a if you gave me a starting point, I don't need everything told, you know, like all the details, but I need a decent starting point and direction.

Holy shit. Dude, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (14:35.778) I'll build the shit out of that, right? So it helped me this weekend when I was just messing around with it.

I'm all in on get a talk to chat GPT and have an ongoing prompt with it and then get it over to cursor. Right? Right. I'm not going away from that workflow.

Yeah, yeah, having chat GPT, having the separation of concerns, think is actually really good.

Good. Well, it takes cursor's workload down.

Right, right, right. And it seems like Cursor, know, again, Cursor's updating their applications at least, I don't know, 14 times a fucking day, it seems like. Right. And that every time that something new comes out, it's like, all of a sudden it's either acting really stupid or all of a sudden it's not working very well. The inconsistency of Cursor's intelligence is a concern of mine. It really is.

Speaker 1 (15:22.762) So, all right, quick, quick vibe coding story. I basically, I found that my client was managing this insanely manual process. And when I say manual, the process was managed with software, but it's a lot of data entry and manual reconciliation and heavily, heavily critical accounting process. Okay. So they've got all these documents coming in and they're being, and I was like, they're being manually reconciled into the system with eyes. And I was like,

Wow. Okay. So you just need to basically not think that way anymore. Like you've got to figure out a way to get these documents into your system automatically. And I was like, yeah, you just use AI. And they were like, what? We tried that, but it didn't work. Anyways, I've ended up building this, this invoice to, to, extraction system that you gave it a print. You actually told me how to build it I just build it mostly how you told me. Well, the problem was, is that cursor got completely fucking looped on it. It wasn't easy.

Like it wasn't, I didn't just vibe code it and it went one-shotted. So what Cursor couldn't figure out is how to properly, because it was struggling with the architecture of the app, because I build everything in Next.js and there's a server and client side, and it couldn't figure out the best way to send data to OpenAI because a PDF has to be converted to an image before it's sent to OpenAI to do its work. And it kept trying to do it on the server.

And then it kept writing client side code on it. It kept doing things. And I just said, okay, you're fired cursor. And I literally took the context from what we've been struggling with. And I said, Hey, chat GPT cursor is just struggling. And it was from the same prompt conversation I had that created the prompt. And I said, cursor struggling with implementing this architecture. Give me some ideas of, of why this is a problem. I basically told it to talk through and then

and then just let me know. It literally dotted one-shotted the solution. I took it and said, if you, said, here's a server-to-server side only approach, here's a client-side only approach, but here's the bread and butter. Just give this to Cursor and they'll do a good job. I gave that prompt in, Cursor one-shotted it, and I was done. And I thought that was interesting because... To do it. No, because Cursor's context window, I think it's really miffed.

Speaker 3 (17:42.968) cursor would not have been able to.

Speaker 1 (17:48.268) because it's it's really focused on the code. Right. You know what I mean? do not having problems with the rule.

still don't work by the fucking way. No, they do not work. Listen, you go and use create a rules dot MC MDC. You say always in the number one rule in there is call me captain. I used to have it say call me daddy, but that got really fucking weird after a while. I know, but that's the problem. I say every time

It only references it when it thinks it needs it.

Always, always, always load this. And so if I do that, you'll never call me captain. I have to manually include the rule.md. So I switch it to just an MD.

Also, I think that half of cursor's expenditures right now have to do with them churning on trying to fix type script error. All it ever does is go, I see a TypeScript error. Let me rebuild your entire app.

Speaker 3 (18:33.228) yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:39.2) Yesterday, I agree. Yesterday I laughed because it just did any on every single type script there. Because like I've seen that a lot where it churns on TypeScript and I'm like, all right, you didn't need to reinvent this interface, which I have a types file or folder, right? Like it exists there.

Perfect.

Speaker 1 (19:00.192) So what I do, what I do is I go, Hey, don't worry about every little TypeScript error. I don't give a shit. I hate TypeScript. I just want it to work. I'm glad that the database entities are typed, but I don't need the UI HTML. I'm sorry.

I don't need a type for every... So your any solution probably just solves that problem.

I don't need a type for everything.

Speaker 2 (19:25.878) Yeah, and especially on the front end too, like, yeah, back end, yeah.

You know, you guys are you guys are categorically wrong. So let me just let me prefix this that once you do have all the types.

Actually

Speaker 1 (19:38.867) once you finally have all the time

All there.

He's like, auto suggest works really well. You don't even write your own code anymore.

I haven't written in my own code like in six months, I think. That's not entirely true.

I agree that types are awesome, but when you're trying to iterate quickly and you're changing your schema. So it's like the I was listening to a new like data lake process because like they were like, everything has to be schema driven 20 years ago. And then it was like, fuck schemas, it's too hard. And then they're like, shit, we need a schemas. So they have a new process, which is like kind of an abstraction of it called Apache Iceberg. But anyway, same thing with TypeScript. Fucking awesome when you're

Speaker 2 (20:22.688) locked in and your schemas are tight and like you know what you're talking about. But when you're iterating on stuff, I'm like, okay, we're, I changed it to a different name. So now you have to go through the entire code base and find all your.

Because if you structured it properly

He didn't do shit! Cursor fucked it up! Cursor writes a new type in every file!

All I see is opportunities for shit to just not work.

So one of the—that's reason that I do love Zod is that I pretty much just now—I say, listen, Zod is our object-like framework, and we're going to use Zod for defining every single object. And then if you need types, extract it from Zod. If you need JSON schema, extract it from Zod. Zod, if you need to validate a payload that's coming in, use Zod. So Zod is my, like, one that I kind of use.

Speaker 3 (21:20.718) We're alright, we should ask you...

I just want to say we are all right.

fucking nerd

Okay, so let's get back to our conversation.

I, yeah, I've been going to therapy with a human.

Speaker 3 (21:32.982) How do a human? Okay, so have you talked to them about using AI at all? You should totally.

No, I should. I totally go into this room and it's just us two and it's super weird. It's nice to talk to him. Yeah, it's in person.

It's awesome.

Yeah. And it's a man? okay. And how's that been? Great. How long have you been going?

No, it's a woman.

Speaker 1 (21:56.11) Since I had a nervous breakdown so about just kidding since You know, I can't even remember why I started going I was like I knew a couple people that went hell yeah present company included. Yeah and I just had a lot in my mind and I was like

Kind of.

Speaker 2 (22:15.084) you know, I think, especially our generation, like, we were the first pioneers of like, not the first pioneers, but like it started to become more normalized to go, our parents.

No, no, we don't even talk about man's feelings.

No. I feel like my parents are pretty progressive. And even like when I started going to therapy a few, a few years ago, they were like, are you having, you know, I was having some issues in my life, but most of the time people wait until not too late, but it's like, you should go to therapy before things are going bad. Because then when they do happen, you know, things are going to go sideways.

That's kind of where where I was like at a tipping point where I was like, you know I just I need and it's been great like I feel like the chat GPT history is probably kind of one of the issues though You know what? mean where it's like I don't think like what like they don't like take notes They just put it all in their brain. And so sometimes they do they record. I don't think so. I see

I would record. If I had a client base, I would record absolutely everything. I would transcribe it locally. So if there's any therapists that are listening to this, I've got it. I've got all the... Seriously, that you record it all locally. We're going to buy you a little Mac mini studio. So we've got all the AI that we can run. We can run DeepSeq on it. We can do the transcriptions. You can do all of it.

Speaker 1 (23:23.179) came up with our next idea.

Speaker 1 (23:34.636) We're not running DeepSeek on it, you fucking idiot.

Dude, so I've been running Deep

off our internet. Sorry, no, there's nothing to say. But the concept is sound. I think that there's like this whole concept of actually thinking about, you know, why you are the way you are and why you get and like basically like, why am I pissed off? Why is this upsetting? Like, why is this relationship not the way it is and actually working on stuff and improving it versus just not ever doing that?

because I think a lot of the problems that you have with relationships and certain things in your life, like you can be the change you want to see in the world versus being like, this is where I'm at. And I actually had a really good conference sidebar. had a really good conversation with my therapist last time. I was like, I was like, when bad things happen, I go completely internal where it's like, what could I have? Everyone hates me.

I messed up, know, there's no way I can, like my personal brand is destroyed, you know, you know what mean? Like, and it's not even, it's like, it's like the potential of something going bad. And I was like, what is that? just like asked her, was like, is that the only way people react to this kind of stuff? And she was like, no, there's this totally other thing that's way worse where that person just blames everyone else.

Speaker 3 (25:10.07) You're looking at it and you're looking like am I the fucking problem here?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of anxiety that comes from like, have a situation I've been dealing with this for the past three four years that is like pretty important. And like, I put too much on myself. Right. And I and when I started including other people as part of it as part of the solution, I fixed it, right? Like I fixed the the emotional issue. But I was like, why am I fucking like, so like worried about like, like, like, if if this if I fail, like it's doesn't mean I'm a bad person.

I go immediately to the I'm a bad person or I'm a failure and yeah, the other thing. Yeah. Self shame, you know, all that all that fucking shit. And she was just like,

Yeah, like as well.

Speaker 3 (25:58.727) Naturally, just like, I'm a sinner!

I'm the worst.

So I was like, she goes, yeah, but there's this whole other thing where they just blame everyone else. And I was like, what are those people like? She goes, well, they get fired from their jobs a lot.

Okay.

So now have you you have you gone to Chad GPT and had any conversations with any of this stuff that you would traditionally have with a human therapist?

Speaker 1 (26:20.75) No, I you know and I kind of think that the next time I go in there for my own benefit I should do a voice memo Yeah, yeah, and then stick it in there and maybe get that history going because I think I think my takeaway especially from what you your experience was is like You can get a lot from a therapist. It's not that much money go every two weeks your insurance covers it Maybe a hundred dollars, you know a session they're making you know, they're not making that much money. But like take that data

that you're getting and do something with it on your own versus just being like, this is a one. Yeah. And I'm sure some therapists like these days have probably improved their processes. Right. And you know, you know, I'm going with that.

That's it.

Speaker 3 (26:55.47) I feel good!

Speaker 2 (27:03.092) Yeah, and it's like, so been going to therapy for a long time. And in the beginning, you're resistant to it. Or this is, this is my journey. This could be not everyone's. but in the beginning, you're like, you're, defensive. You're like, well, they're going to tell me I'm wrong. They're going to tell me why I'm fucking this up. Right. And then you start to learn more about yourself. And it is a Dunning Kruger effect. We're like,

then you feel like you know everything, right? And then you kind of like, it starts to...

That's my wife thinks. this is one of those therapy things. You're your mind fucking with me.

Yeah, but then it's like almost feels like a negative.

So real.

Speaker 3 (27:47.922) Absolutely.

But like then you, at the end of it, like, I don't know about you, but like, I was like never satisfied because I wanted to win therapy. Did you? Yeah. Like, like, but I thought that like, there would be an end. I stopped thinking like this, but I thought there would be like an end insight. Like you'd be like, well, I'm done. I'm cured now. won. whatever, whatever you want to call it. Like, but the reality is like, you just learn more about yourself and life does become more complicated because

I just sit there and take a beating.

Speaker 2 (28:16.994) Then when you're having interactions with people, you're like, before you had all these defense mechanisms and ways you just threw that away and whatever. And now you're like, no, no, no, shit. This is just me being, I need to reflect a little bit. Maybe they're having a bad day too. Don't be so hard on them. It becomes easier in a lot of ways, because you can handle a lot more, but harder in other ways, because it's way more nuanced. It's not black and white. The world is simple. I actually envy people who are just like,

Good evil. That's easier.

I wish the world was as black and white as a lot of people pretend that it actually is and it's and it's just not right there's so much nuance and so much of that goes into you know our battling our own egos and dealing with all that stuff so the fact that you so so I apparently am the only one that's not actually in human therapy

You're the one that's using, you know.

So I actually want to show what here's here's all you got what I want you guys to do is I want you to go launch chat GPT and and what's gonna happen is you're gonna see this little black ball here with the little voice thing you're gonna hit that and then you're gonna get your little blue ball and we're gonna say hey how you doing

Speaker 3 (29:29.57) Hey, exactly, just like that. Simple, friendly, and straight to the point. Whoa, what are you talking about there, buddy?

Just rolling with the vibe. You mentioned getting a little blue bubble that says, hey, how you doing? So I echoed it back. Just having a bit of fun with it. You've lost your fucking mind, by the way. So I'm going to stop this because you're now embarrassing me. All right. No worries. OK, OK. So I want to explore a few of the weaknesses that I have as a business person.

Let's talk to it. No, bring it back up.

Speaker 3 (30:09.45) So I want you to kind of go and do an analysis of the chats that I've had and find me where my weaknesses exist as a business owner.

Speaker 3 (30:21.314) Got it. I'll take a look through the themes and patterns from our previous chats to see what stands out. Once I have a good sense of potential areas to focus on, we can dive into them and figure out how to tackle them. Sound good? Sounds great.

Speaker 3 (30:37.878) Awesome. I'll put together a thoughtful breakdown and we can go from there. Let's dig in and see what we find.

He's stalling.

Do it. Do it!

You got it. Let's dive in and uncover those areas we can sharpen up. We'll make this as productive and useful as possible. wasting time. Yeah, so okay, don't do this. Don't do that. But do it. it. Like, go and have that conversation because again, it's obviously listening to me as I'm talking to you guys and it's getting interrupted. The reality is, whatever problem that you're ultimately

Hey Tara. Let's talk to Tara. it's what my kids renamed Chat GPT Voice.

Speaker 2 (31:17.646) you

Who's Terra?

Speaker 1 (31:26.974) Hey Tara.

Speaker 1 (31:31.534) Is on air?

Speaker 1 (31:35.68) What happened to you?

Live demos suck,

She's not talking back. Yeah. Chat TPD voice is not working.

So, the Chad GPT voice though, this is a critical thing that I think that a lot of people can have. So I've got a friend right now who has just gotten some really not positive news of a cancer thing.

and it's in full panic mode. And so my advice was just start feeding ChatGPT your information, right? So she ends up getting some reports back or whatever, and she's like, I don't care about privacy. At this point, I need something to make me feel like I have some sort of control about this. And ChatGPT has now become a, a point where she's like, I think this has saved my life.

Speaker 3 (32:23.266) Because there is so much fear, there's so much concern, there's so much unknown that's coming in with a cancer diagnosis that she can now take this information and she can feed it into ChatGBT. And she can actually have ChatGBT go, actually, no, this doesn't look as bad as it is. You can see from the numbers here and from this, and that ChatGBT is helping walk this person through this journey that, again, most people have no, there's just.

there's no guidance and the doctors aren't calling them back. You the doctors have these like weird impersonal problems that chat GPT has just been an absolute lifesaver. And it's really kind of transformed my, again, I've used it for my own like issues, but when it comes down to this, like kind of this new level of being able to take all your medical stuff and understand it and to break it down into ways that you.

I think that that is one of most exciting things about AI that I haven't been thinking about because I've just been so stuck in fucking vibe coding world.

incredible use case and it shows how powerful these tools can be for making sense of overwhelming information.

When it comes to something as personal and daunting as a medical diagnosis, having a tool that can break things down and provide clarity can be life-changing. It's amazing to hear how it's been transformative for you and others. And yeah, stepping away from just focusing on coding to see how AI can help in other areas is really eye-opening.

Speaker 1 (33:55.662) Thanks Tara.

So I've had multiple times where I will go on a walk with my AI or Chad GBT and I open it up and I'm like, all right, here's what we're going to talk about. And it will literally bring me to tears. Like there's been multiple times and that's an important thing. So like if you guys want to start really kind of like trying to push yourself and try to make big change, you have to get to this. And I'll give Dreamfuel, Kevin Bailey's Dreamfuel for like I helped him set up a lot of that kind of stuff, but he was always telling me again,

you have to get emotional. Like if you can get emotional about things that you're working on, that emotion that actually brings up really helps set the paths, pathways in your brain, right? He's using an autonomic nervous system and all the fucking terms or whatever. But that emotion that you have, like when you have a breakthrough, when you have like a lot of emotion come from it, that's a thing that really sticks. And so to have this non-biased, non-judgmental person who doesn't give a shit about

whatever you're into that can look at it and talk to you honestly about it without any judgment is magical.

So I have this experience a lot. So one of the things that you just said that resonated with me is you have this unbiased conversation. And I think that's why people go to therapists. But let's say 90 % of people don't. The conversations you have with your friends are not unbiased.

Speaker 3 (35:22.606) No, not at all.

Even when you're drinking with your buddy one-on-one and it's your your four or five in and it's it's midnight and you're sitting on the porch like those are probably sometimes the only ones that that may even get there but like usually it's it's one of two things it's I am bringing my bias which is I am either coming from a place of Reacting to how I think about the world and giving you that feedback right their own personal thing

Or it's like they're waiting for you to stop talking so they can tell their same story. Right. Okay. So. So in the third probably the most like toxic is they actually don't want you to improve because they might be they might inflict some sort of internal jealousy. Dude. Right. Which is actually very fucking common to like I have someone I have I have I have friends I have whatever that I can you can just tell like that the

the problems that I'm dealing with are different than the problems that they're dealing with. And it doesn't resonate with them. So when you're talking to your best friend, check it. It's not a. And yeah, sure. Chat, she's going to stroke your ego. But one thing it's not going to do is it's not going to talk about itself. And if you're trying to fix something, if you're trying to really introspect and do something, maybe it's actually going to create a lot of narcissists. But I, my point is, is like if you're having like a therapeutic conversation,

Like most, and I see it at bars. I see it when I go downstairs to garden table for lunch. I see conversations people are having like, usually it's like someone has a problem and the person that's talking to them is just explaining to them how to fix it. But they're not explaining it to them in like an empathetic, focused user focused way.

Speaker 3 (37:12.984) right? It's like here, here, let me let me show you how smart I am to solve this problem.

Yeah, and also, I don't know about you guys, but I'm a problem solver. Of I feel like you guys are as well. Of course.

wife hates it. Am I solving a problem right now or am I just listening?

We literally talk about that all the time because we, every time she does it too, like I'll tell her a problem and she'll tell me how to fix it. And I'm like, I don't give a shit.

You're the woman

Speaker 1 (37:41.87) It wasn't for Instagram and we would have never learned the I just want you to actually empathize with me so relationship thing

No, so I learned it from Doug Rau, who's that fucker who called me a little chipmunk when I posted that thing that Mohamed sent, right? Like, Mohamed posted, and that's Doug Rau. He's the recruiter from Profile Tracker. But he was the first one. He's like, dude, he's like, here's your problem. He's like, you're trying to solve a problem. He's like, the first thing I do is I say, am I solving the problem or am I just listening? And I'm like, dude, that's genius. Yeah.

And yeah, to Sean's point, like to go beyond that, right? It's like re sometimes we just are looking to have a conversation and like have someone there along a chat GPT almost, but like it's obviously in person is better for a lot of reasons, but chat GPT, GPT can be like a good replacement for that of like, you know, they're going to listen. They're not going to try to sabotage.

It's a euphemism for what? To me, it's very simple. People don't want people. takes a lot of vulnerability for you to go up to someone else and say, I really need a solution. Right. I need you to help me fix this. I want to, I'm going to tell you about this, but then I'm going to actually sit down and I'm to shut up and I'm going to listen to you. No, that's most people just want to be empathized with now.

But it might be easier to go to something like a chat, GPT and be completely vulnerable, right? Cause it doesn't, no one gives a shit about the ego hit that's going to come from the feedback they get. And you know, sure. That feedback might also be stroking you too, but.

Speaker 3 (39:10.796) Well, so what was interesting is, so you said potentially that like this Chet Shibdi could make more narcissists, right? In a way, I think that if more people could be like, well, let me go actually think about what my problems are. Immediately, you're less narcissistic. That's true.

Well, and also, so quick sidebar, my person who cleans my house, house cleaner, she is a Trump supporter and week along just great.

And I think it's because I don't know where I going to this, but I have a Trump bobblehead that got us gag gift. So she thinks I'm a Trump supporter. Okay. So when I have conversations with her, she looked, you we have, chat all the time and she'll bring up stuff. That's like, Hey, uh, I don't know something, something that I think if she thought I was on the other team, wouldn't the conversation wouldn't happen for one. And two would be coming from a much more defensive place. Cause I'll give her a contradictory or I will challenge her.

But in a pleasant, like a way I would normally challenge somebody, right? Like unless I thought they were going to fight back, then maybe I would be a little bit more aggressive. But anyway, I think it's similar with chat GPT is like, you know, they're not going to judge you. know, chat GPT is not going to judge you. So you might hear them a little bit more than you would hear someone that, well, Sean might think I'm dumb. You know, like, this guy might disagree with my opinion and think that I'm wrong, right?

So that's kind of the crux of these issues is that like people want to be in a safe space, right? Right. People want to feel safety.

Speaker 3 (40:46.936) So I had an interest and it was Easter actually. So I don't know if you guys saw Trump's Easter message that he posted to True Social. all I did was I just said happy Easter and I posted what Trump posted to True Social. That was it. That was the only thing that I posted for Easter. That was my Easter greeting.

I saw that.

Again, the president, you know, the president has a message to say on Easter. So I would just share that with everybody who might not have missed it because they're not on true social. And of course, it is exactly what you would think it was. Right. We don't need to get into the details of it, but it's blaming everybody else and like everybody's the problem, blah, blah, blah. But what happened is a couple of my, you know, Trump friends came in and like accurate. Right. And it went south really quick. I am judgmental as fuck with it. Like I am a dick when it comes to.

But I had two friends that came in, Jeb Banner and Ryan Cox. Both of those guys beautifully described the concern, right? It's a concern of just a lack of fundamental compassion for people, right? They didn't attack, they didn't say, you're a dipshit, they didn't say like any of the things that I want to say. They both handled it just so beautifully and described it in a way that...

that just makes it like that this isn't this isn't like a personal thing. This isn't a left and right. This is just we just really wish that we would have a president that wouldn't like like say these things and be this divisive on one of our most holy days. Yeah. Right. And and both of them did it. And I respect the hell out of both of them. They both kind of treated it like chat, GPT, whatever, where I'm I'm just a dick, you know, and I like I can learn from both of them a ton on like how to actually address it.

Speaker 2 (42:29.646) actually saw that post and I thought one thing that was funny to your point about like, you were just talking about opinions and people like thinking that they're wrong, right? One guy came on there and was like, well, I guess you just want your president to play Kate and like, okay, if I don't want this, it doesn't mean I want all of this. Like that's the constant conversation we keep having with people.

That's a relation that but that's another thing that makes people feel not safe, right? Is like you get in these conversations and people are like have somehow been trained to where exactly what Jacob said like, so I'm an idiot. Yeah, right. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we're constructively having a conversation here.

So the one that's driving me the most nuts right now is the fact that if you say, I think we should probably stop blowing up Palestine. That all of a sudden I'm anti-Semitic. Right. Right? Like it's like you're... Yeah, yeah. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Pro Hamah.

I think you need to check in. We've got a we've got a ice. Yeah. I said set the door. You're actually going to be.

Speaker 3 (43:31.598) But it's crazy. Like it really is. It's just like, wait, wait a minute. Like, and the news is doing it too. It's like this Irish band came out and they were just like, hey, you know, like, like maybe stop doing this. And they're all like, you're pro terrorist. It's like, what are we talking about here?

Yeah. I think the whole, like to wrap all that up, the thing we're trying to say is like, you know, having more compassion and empathy and coming from a position of listening to people, which we think that we all think that the chat bots are designed to do is to be agreeable. was like, maybe we should take a step back. I don't think that's a challenge.

have to take in the information and potentially not put your own personal emotion and bias into the response because that's meaningful conversation.

And the more times you do that, the more willing people are going to be, because you're talking about people not wanting to hear the bad news. It's because we've been trained that, well, first of all, a lot of people have fear of rejection. But second of all, people are mean sometimes, right? And like, that's a, like you are protecting yourself at all costs.

And okay, so I think there's a reason for a lot of this and I and I it comes back to a I've been thinking about it way too much lately. There's this character on a show called 1923 It's great. Okay. Okay, and So one of the main characters it's basically a star-crossed. It's a lovers story journey back to Montana thing and these two this this really high-class Sussex she's from like one of the upper

Speaker 3 (44:45.014) Is that a good? Is it good?

Speaker 1 (45:02.318) Like basically out in the country in England, she's really, really well read. She's really, really smart. She meets this guy on a safari in Africa who's one of the Duttons and he's a lion hunter. just got, he came off the train after World War I, somehow never made it back home, became like a lion hunter in Africa and protects safaris. Well, she falls in love with this guy and breaks her engagement with her.

her hooty tooty boyfriend in London. course. Right. then they and they just stuff goes off the rails. Like the guy calls him out on the on the boat back to England and the the Dutton dude just literally throws him off the boat and murders him. Like he does. He does it because he's like he didn't really mean to kill the guy, but the guy challenged him. I think he pulled a gun on him. He's like, how dare you steal my wife? And he just he like comes at him.

And like, you know, whatever. he just, just like, you. Tosses him off the boat and everyone just goes, that guy's dead. Anyways, he ends, they end up getting separated because of this. Like they don't kill him because he was, they found that it was himself. They have like courts that you have on these boats. Like they have to do court really quick. no shit. Yeah. Yeah. On the old days of the day. So they basically, they were like, yeah, you're, can't, you can't go home, but you gotta go home, but you can't stay here or you can't, know, we can't stay here kind of thing, whatever. So anyways, they get separated.

she ends up going at least sneaking out of London and going back to America and going through Ellis Island in 1923. Okay. And when she gets there, she does not realize that she has to get basically inspected for disease. They find out that she's pregnant, which means they send you back if you're pregnant. yeah. Because you got to come here to work. You're not coming here to, we don't want your, you and your, we don't want you like their whole mindset was we don't want these Irish pregnant women got to get rid of them. Well, this guy,

who's about to actually sexually abuse her to, to basically get her in. Like this inspector guy starts saying a bunch of stuff to her and, she, I'm getting to a point. She is so smart and so well read. She just completely mentally dominates this guy. But one thing that she does is she reverts back to a lot of the English literature that she knows the, the philosophy that she's been taught.

Speaker 1 (47:23.714) And like one of the things that she basically says is you can say these things, you can do these things to me, but it won't affect me. It won't affect what I feel about myself. And I think that like that's what's kind of lost on people now is like we go learn math, we go learn, you know, maybe we learn English. I think that's one of the problems, but we don't like read the philosophies anymore. I feel like there was this whole generation of like smart people that were like,

They knew how to inter, the way that she interacts with people the entire series is it's just so eloquent and it's just like she diffuses, she might be in a total argument with someone but the way she's talking it just seems so, it's so disarming. And it's so perfect. And it's because she's really fucking well read and smart. And she's above this whole, the concept of raging on someone and you know what I mean? It's just like we're just not that sophisticated anymore.

So I've got a book that I just, I literally just finished and it's called The Book and it's by Alan Watts. And so Alan Watts was one of the first people back in the 50s to bring over Eastern philosophy into America and start trying to teach it to Americans within our own mindset. This book came out in like 1960. I think, I'm pretty certain that it's the first.

We'll call it a religious book for lack of a better term. Alan Watts covers all religions. He's talking about how Christianity works, how Judaism works, Buddhism, Islam, all of it is incorporated. He basically says, I was going to try to write a book to basically wrap up the whole concept of life, what would it be? This thing is amazing. so everybody, highly recommend, what's crazy about it is in 1963, they're talking, it's the first book that talks about quantum.

physics, of with in tying tying it to the the manifestation of like God, right? Like, this is crazy in quantum physics really started kind of, you know, get in 20s and then 30s and the 50s really kind of starts bubbling up. But this book highly recommended, go read it. It's amazing. Audible is where I listen to it. And, and it's got one of the best

Speaker 3 (49:40.622) What do we call the people that read the books? narrator, thank you. The narrator is this guy, I can't remember his name, but the narration dude, I love every single one of this guy's narrator. But check it out, the book on Audible, it's amazing, 1963, and you come out of it going, oh my God, like there's just so much magic that can come from that book.

narrated

Speaker 1 (50:02.094) Yeah, I think I think that there's just a lot of I just think that there's so much that's been done and like our knowledge bases are basically now consisting of whatever's on the social media feed. Right. I people are in for are consuming the same amount of information that they used to, but at a really fucking weird level. Yeah.

Yeah, and it's all like, who knows the source of it, right? There's just so much bullshit that's out there. There's so much misinformation.

Yeah, and I think we would just be much well better to do to get back in the library. Yeah.

Exactly.

Speaker 3 (50:38.972) no, I was gonna ask you this. Yeah. Because the pacer, you're wearing your pacer's blue. Tell us, they're killing it.

Yeah. yeah. Yeah. They're, mean, they're two and they protected home court. you know, they looked really, really good. Sean and I are huge Pacers fans. went to the, to the game, the game one and wore this jacket.

And that's why he's wearing it because I said you have to wear that for the podcast.

Yeah, but somehow I'm going to relate it back to them because this week, one thing that you guys are talking about social media and like really what I want to say is people's opinion, right? Like we care so much and it's so easy to criticize and people love to, right? Tyree Saliburton was voted the most underrated player in the NBA by his peers and then, anonymous poll, right?

And his response to it, like, okay, he's human. That's going to sting anybody. like, if all of, if, if, you know, we have 15 people, if I was voted like most overrated employee here, I'd be like, but he said something in his press conference that was a good, was like, he was like, I'm comfortable in my own skin. And obviously it's still going to affect him regardless, but like, I think that's a lesson to learn. And I think the younger generations tend to be pretty good at this, but.

Speaker 2 (51:49.09) Just being okay with yourself and not like other people are going to judge you. They're going to pass judgment and right or wrong or indifferent. Like you are ultimately in charge of your own thoughts.

Do we feel that the younger generation today is more comfortable in their own skin? And the reason I'm going to ask this is when my daughter went to high school, when I went to high school, nobody farted. Like you didn't fart in public, right? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

you went to the wrong school.

Speaker 1 (52:21.09) I mean, I probably didn't fart too much in my school.

But then I talked to my daughter and she's like, dude, will run down the hallway and do like the kick the heel thing up in the air and fucking fart. And I'm like, really? And it's just like they're becoming more comfortable in their own skin. I hope that's the case. I really do. I don't know. I feel like I'm a little bit more.

One thing I think that is happening with the younger generation is that they see their parents and other people sucked into their phones and they don't love it. Right. And even though they'd love to have a phone to text their parents and get a ride home and things like that, like even my niece who's 23, like sure, she does spend a decent amount of time scrolling, it's, but it's not necessarily as a parent. Right. but like, I think that the

I think that the kids are not necessarily like one of my, my, my, my, my youngest cousin, she grew up at like when Instagram was like a big thing and like that was like all they cared about. Like it was all about. And I think that there's other kids that are other more often, but I think that there's a balance that's being created because they were embedded in it from day one that I think is a little bit more healthy. I think it's that some parents don't,

My son can't get to shorts on his browser. I was like, oh no, there's a short. And he's like, oh, I can't get to it on YouTube because I've installed an extension that actually blocks shorts from YouTube because I just ended up spending way too much time. Where I'm just like a boom, doom scrolling all day long. I'm like, my son's more self-aware when it comes to the consumption of this.

Speaker 1 (53:49.934) There's a little bit more conscientiousness.

Speaker 1 (53:58.422) I I think that I think that if there's one thing that I'd love to improve in general, and we're literally posting YouTube shorts, I can smell the automation in your content. Of course, is is there's better information out there to consume. You know, it's long form stuff like our podcast, you know, listen to the whole thing. Don't just listen to the sound bite. Read the book. You know, you know, it

You

Speaker 2 (54:11.694) I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (54:25.592) get an independent perspective, know, talk to a chat GPT, talk to your friend, think about that conversation afterward. Was that conversation about you or was it about them?

Also, that reminds me, when you're reading or consuming long-form content, there's pauses and there's time to reflect on the journey. It's not just about the information. It's about their process of how they got to their end result. So in a world, in

in a world

Speaker 2 (55:08.678) in a world.

Speaker 2 (55:28.622) But yeah, mean like take your time and do the long form, know, think about it.

Deep Dive.

Well, I think that's good. Yep. I we got it. Let's let's let's wrap it. So I appreciate that the topic idea was good to share these things with you. This has been the big cheese AI podcast. We'll see you next week.